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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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One moment before we return to Ephesians.
You said this:
| Quote: | | I'd say that Faith is like a seed. Even when it is not sprouting, it still exists. |
Would you say that for the Christian there is ever a moment after they have been 'saved' that they do not have this faith? You say even when it is not sprouting, it still exists. Would you say that there is ever a moment within a Christian's life when their faith is not only not sprouting, but it is not in existence? I mean, they have once obtained saving faith, and perhaps it began to grow, and you would say that there can be moments when this faith does not grow (is not sprouting), but would you ever say there is a moment when it ceases to exist?
Briefly: is there ever a moment within the Christian's life (one who has been saved) when they cease to have faith within them? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | is there ever a moment within the Christian's life (one who has been saved) when they cease to have faith within them? |
Nope. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Let me see if I can get this correct. I asked you if I was unrighteous or if I was unjust. You said I was, citing the Scripture which says there is none righteous.
You said that one is only declared righteous when they partake of Christic faith. You said likewise that a developing faith within us is a Christic faith. You likewise said that faith is like a seed, even when it is not sprouting, it still exists. You also answered negatively when asked if there was ever a moment within a Christian's life when they did not have faith. So you have claimed that Christian always has faith - Christic faith - regardless of whether this faith is developing or not, it is still there. So a Christian always has faith; always has Christic faith.
If we take this in conjunction with your previous statement of one being declared righteous insofar as they partake of Christic faith, we see that a Christian (who always has Christic faith) is declared righteous.
So you have admitted that a Christian is declared righteous.
I then ask you again, am I unrighteous? Am I unjust? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You said that one is only declared righteous when they partake of Christic faith. |
That is inaccurate. I said that we are righteous insofar as we partake in christic faith. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| You are correct. You did say that. But seeing as how one always partakes of Christic faith (as you have confessed) then it would seem that one is declared righteous insofar (to the extent) that they partake of Christic faith; i.e. one is declared righteous to the extent of their entire Christian life. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But seeing as how one always partakes of Christic faith (as you have confessed) then it would seem that one is declared righteous insofar (to the extent) that they partake of Christic faith; |
Correct.
Now how about ephesians 3:15? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| So a Christian, as always partaking in Christic faith, is always declared righteous? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So a Christian, as always partaking in Christic faith, is always declared righteous? |
As my position is that the term "christian" applies to the person only insofar as they are involved in the Faith of Christ, my answer is yes. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Dear Nobby and Metothezero,
Seeing that this debate has mainly been focused on my position that every human being has both a regenerate and unregenerate nature, rather than universal salvation per se, I was wondering how you two would feel about changing the title of the debate to something like UNIVERSALISTIC DUALISM, or something to that effect. Mind you, we would still discuss universal salvation.... |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Dear Nobby and Metothezero,
Seeing that this debate has mainly been focused on my position that every human being has both a regenerate and unregenerate nature, rather than universal salvation per se, I was wondering how you two would feel about changing the title of the debate to something like UNIVERSALISTIC DUALISM, or something to that effect. Mind you, we would still discuss universal salvation.... |
Actually, I was hoping to rename it 'Brownies vs. Chocolate Chip Cookies', but you suggestion does seem the more reasonable. I have no problem with such renaming. 
| Quote: | | As my position is that the term "christian" applies to the person only insofar as they are involved in the Faith of Christ, my answer is yes. |
So, with this point in mind. Let us now return to this passage:
| Quote: | | 1Co 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, (10) thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom. (11) Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. |
Now, that we have established that the 'Christian' is not 'unjust', how then do you explain this passage as Paul's using synecdoche?
We will return to the Ephesian passage after we have finished this thread of thought. We were discussing Phil. 3:19-20. Paul says that 'their' end is destruction, whereas 'our' citizenship is in heaven. You claimed that this was synecdoche used by Paul. I asked for other usage by Paul (or any author); you pointed to 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and 1 John 3:8-9. If we cannot prove that the Corinthian passage is synecdoche, we will have to address the Johanian passage. If this likewise cannot be proven as synecdoche, I will have to ask for further proof. If you cannot prove that synecdoche is used elsewhere, then you must prove that it is used in the Philippian passage. If you cannot prove that it is used there then we have no other option then the literal reading of 'their' end being destruction, as in they being destroyed (them completely, not part of them or parts labeled them).
Understand why we must maintain our course?
We will return to the Ephesian passage after we have finished this point. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| So what exactly is your question, meto. Not to be coy.... |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, that we have established that the 'Christian' is not 'unjust', how then do you explain this passage [1 Cor. 6:9-11] as Paul's using synecdoche? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, that we have established that the 'Christian' is not 'unjust', how then do you explain this passage [1 Cor. 6:9-11] as Paul's using synecdoche? |
I was hoping for yout to rephrase your question so that it was more specific.
Again....In 1 Cor 6:9-11, Paul uses the noun "the unrighteous" as a synecdoche for all that is unrighteous in a human being. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Very well, explain to me how 'No sexually immoral people will inherit the God's kingdom' is synecdoche?
How can 'people' be not reference to the person, but rather to a part of the person? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Very well, explain to me how 'No sexually immoral people will inherit the God's kingdom' is synecdoche? |
Well, is ther enot sexual immorality in all persons tainted with sin? Is Adam King the only person on Earth who does not entertain lustful thoughts?
Paul himself summed up the thrust of his meaning by saying that nothing unclean will inherit the kingdom of God.
| Quote: | | How can 'people' be not reference to the person, but rather to a part of the person? |
Again, not to be coy, but what do you mean "how"?
It is not at all uncommon to speak of an aspect of a person or thing by figuratively speaking of such in terms of the whole thing or person. |
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