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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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The carnal mind is what Paul called the "flesh". It is the seat of ungodly thoughts and desires.
By destroyed I mean that it ceases to exist as such.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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So you want to know what I believe will happen to me when my carnal mind is destroyed? I believe this to be the state we refer to as Glorification. When the carnality and sinfulness within me is done away with and that which has been previously birthed within me (being a regenerated spirit) is united with a new body.
Where are you going with this question my friend?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So you want to know what I believe will happen to me when my carnal mind is destroyed? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | I believe this to be the state we refer to as Glorification. |
Ditto.
| Quote: | | When the carnality and sinfulness within me is done away with and that which has been previously birthed within me (being a regenerated spirit) is united with a new body. |
ok
| Quote: | | Where are you going with this question my friend? |
Well, I think that you answered your own question when you asked, "What then happens to everyone that the carnal mind is IN?....What then happens to everyone that the true nature RESIDES IN? "
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Let us return again to the Philippian passage. You say Paul uses synechoche here. Can you find anywhere else within Scripture where Paul (or any other Scriptural author) uses such synechoche as 'our' and 'their' to refer to the parts within one person?
The reason I ask is that I base my view and my previous answer off of Scripture that teaches that 'we' will be glorified. I find it hard to believe that I should interpret 'we' as being that part within me that is the true self or the good nature.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I find it hard to believe that I should interpret 'we' as being that part within me that is the true self or the good nature. |
Consider this, meto.
Philippians 3:19 declares that the enemies of the Gospel will find their end in destruction. What is an enemy of the Gospel? Surely, an enemy of God, such as those that will finally be subjected to Christ (1 Corinthians 15:28 ). And where there is an enemy, there is enmity. This enmity, you understand, exists between all sinners and God (see Romans 8:7, for example).
| Quote: | | You say Paul uses synechoche here. Can you find anywhere else within Scripture where Paul (or any other Scriptural author) uses such synechoche as 'our' and 'their' to refer to the parts within one person? |
Sure.
Paul: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
John:
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Explain to me how this:
| Quote: | | synecdoche: A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor), the whole for a part (as the law for police officer), the specific for the general (as cutthroat for assassin), the general for the specific (as thief for pickpocket), or the material for the thing made from it (as steel for sword). |
Is used here:
| Quote: | | 1Co 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, (10) thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom. (11) Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. |
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi meto,
"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom?"
We are all unjust, meto. Paul is basically saying that no sin will be in heaven.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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We are not all unjust. As Christians, we are no longer unjust. Paul makes this abundantely clear in verse 11, 'some of you WERE like this'.
Paul says that the unjust will not inherit God's Kingdom, no sexually immoral people, no idolaters...some of you WERE like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were JUSTIFIED.
This is not synecdoche used here. Paul says that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom, not that the unjustice acts will not, but those that are unjust. Those that have not been washed, those that have not been sanctified, those that have not been justified; these will not inherit the kingdom.
To deny this, and to claim that we are unjust once we have have been justified, is to deny the very idea of being declared just which prevails Paul's literature and indeed the majority of Scripture.
Now that that has been proven not to be synecdoche, perhaps you can say why this is synecdoche:
| Quote: | | 1Jo 3:8-9 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works. (9) Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. |
Please praytell how this is an example of John using synecdoche.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Meto,
You are not unjust anymore? You no longer have sin in you? You are incapable of thinking sexually immoral thoughts? Hats off to you!
Seriously, though....
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Do not deceive yourself, my friend.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 1Jo 3:8-9 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works. (9) Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
Please praytell how this is an example of John using synecdoche |
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Certainly. 
"The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning."
Well, we all commit sin, correct?
If you commit sin, then you are of the devil. Yet, we are also told that we are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. So, how can we be both of God and of the devil? Simple. Insofar as we sin, we are of Satan. Insofar as we follow after Christ, we are of God. Therefore, when John says that the one who commits sin is of the devil, he is using metynomy.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You are not unjust anymore? You no longer have sin in you? You are incapable of thinking sexually immoral thoughts? Hats off to you!
Seriously, though....
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Do not deceive yourself, my friend. |
Do not confuse thoughts here my friend. One can have sin within them, one can think sexually immoral thoughts, and yet be justified in the sight of God.
You must follow the train of thought within Paul's writing. Paul begins by scolding these brethren for taking other brethren to court. He says 'you act unjustly (verb, treat someone unjustly)...-and this to brothers!'. He then reminds them that no unjust (noun, those that are unjust) will inherit the kingdom. Paul then says 'some of you WERE like this; but you were JUSTIFIED (verb, declared just) in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ...'
Paul is getting on to these brothers because they are behaving unjustly as if they were not declared just; he reminds them that they have been declared just (v. 11) and therefore should not behave in this way.
I am not saying, neither did Paul, that those who are declared righteous/just will not still behave unrighteous/unjust. Rather the Scriptural idea is that since you have been declared righteous/just you are no longer unjust/unrighteous and therefore should not behave in unrighteousness and unjustice.
The Christian is not unjust; he may act unjustly, but he has been declared just.
If you still choose to ignore this obviously taught Scriptural truth I then leave you with a simple question. IF Paul says that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom, and you apparently advocate that I am still unjust, how then can I inherit the kingdom? I am unjust; the unjust will not inherit the kingdom; what hope then is there?
| Quote: | 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Do not deceive yourself, my friend.
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I have not said that I have no sin, only that I have been declared just and righteous in the sight of God.
| Quote: | | Well, we all commit sin, correct? |
Not in the same way, no.
| Quote: | | If you commit sin, then you are of the devil. Yet, we are also told that we are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ. So, how can we be both of God and of the devil? Simple. Insofar as we sin, we are of Satan. Insofar as we follow after Christ, we are of God. Therefore, when John says that the one who commits sin is of the devil, he is using metynomy. |
If John is using metynomy, why then did you present this as a biblical passage where synecdoche is used? Synecdoche is where the part is used for the whole or the whole for the part; metynomy rather is where one word is substituted for another in which it is closely related. They are not always synonymous.
What specific part is metynomy?
As far as I understand it, metynomy is this: A figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated, as in the use of Washington for the United States government or of the sword for military power.
What word then is John substituting for another closely related word?
And likewise, are you then saying that we are both children of God and children of Satan? You said insofar as we sin, we are of Satan, and insofar as we follow Christ, we are of Christ. Yet John says that 'This is how God's children - and the Devil's children - are made evident. What is how they are made evident? You said we are both God's children and Satan's children...what then evidence do we need to distinguish from the two? We are both.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One can have sin within them, one can think sexually immoral thoughts, and yet be justified in the sight of God. |
So one can think sexually immoral thoughts and yet be sexually moral?
You're confusing me.
Real quick, explain what you mean by "the sight of God."
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
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meto,
I forgot to mention.....synecdoche is a specific form of metynomy.
| Quote: |
Paul begins by scolding these brethren for taking other brethren to court. He says 'you act unjustly (verb, treat someone unjustly)...-and this to brothers!'. He then reminds them that no unjust (noun, those that are unjust) will inherit the kingdom. |
So why did he remind them of this?
| Quote: | | Rather the Scriptural idea is that since you have been declared righteous/just you are no longer unjust/unrighteous and therefore should not behave in unrighteousness and unjustice. |
Ok, but since actions originate in one's nature, and since you still sin, it follows thatyou still have a sinful nature. What Paul is saying is that we are to keep our eyes on the Spirit, knowing that our true nature is in Christ, so that we do not fall into the habits of our flesh.
| Quote: | | IF Paul says that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom, and you apparently advocate that I am still unjust, how then can I inherit the kingdom? I am unjust; the unjust will not inherit the kingdom; what hope then is there? |
You, insofar as your are unjust, will not inherit the kingdom. The sinner must be destroyed, and this is what I've been arguing.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So one can think sexually immoral thoughts and yet be sexually moral? |
Yes.
Sexual immorality involves being sexually immoral. Does it not?
| Quote: | | You're confusing me. |
It doesn't take much does it my friend? 
| Quote: | | Real quick, explain what you mean by "the sight of God." |
I was unrighteous. Jesus was righteous. God said I no longer see Meto's unrighteousness, rather I see only the righteousness of Jesus. Therefore, although still with a corrup flesh and sinful nature, I am righteous (because Christ is righteous).
Romans 3:26: He presented HIm to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
God declared those who have faith righteous.
3:28: For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Those who have faith in Jesus have been declared righteous and they have been justified, they are now righteous and are just.
(That really was short in comparison to what I could have given you, so be thankful!)
| Quote: | | I forgot to mention.....synecdoche is a specific form of metynomy. |
Now you tell me....
| Quote: | | So why did he remind them of this? |
Hmm...why did Paul write what he did? Why did Paul say what he did? I dunno, because he suffered from acute schizophrenia...I dunno. I'm not Paul. When I become Paul (or see him), I'll ask him why he did what he did!
| Quote: | | Ok, but since actions originate in one's nature, and since you still sin, it follows thatyou still have a sinful nature. What Paul is saying is that we are to keep our eyes on the Spirit, knowing that our true nature is in Christ, so that we do not fall into the habits of our flesh. |
But he is likewise saying that although you may fall into the habits of the flesh (as you still sin and still have a sinful nature), you do not do so because you are unjust (and you should not behave as the unjust for the very fact that you are just). Paul says that although you do sin, you are just, you have been considered just and justified, and therefore you should not sin.
Paul repeatedly throughout his literature states that one becomes just by faith in Christ. One is no longer unjust or unrighteous, they are now righteous and are just. You cannot deny this basic truth of Scripture.
| Quote: | | You, insofar as your are unjust, will not inherit the kingdom. The sinner must be destroyed, and this is what I've been arguing. |
For the Christian (who has been declared just) he is not unjust. Nowhere will you find within Scripture a Christian who has put their faith in Christ and been declared just to likewise be said to be unjust. This goes against the very grain of the Scripture. Once one has been declared just/righteous by God, they have given up their status of unjust, they are no longer unjust (ever).
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sexual immorality involves being sexually immoral. Does it not? |
Yes, and thinking immoral thoughts (lusting, for instance) is tantamount to immorality. Memmer what Jesus said about lust and adultery? 
| Quote: | | I was unrighteous. Jesus was righteous. God said I no longer see Meto's unrighteousness, rather I see only the righteousness of Jesus. Therefore, although still with a corrup flesh and sinful nature, I am righteous (because Christ is righteous). |
I think you mean to say that you are unrighteous and that Jesus is righteous.
| Quote: | Romans 3:26: He presented HIm to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
God declared those who have faith righteous. |
Right, insofar as we are of Faith, we are righteous.
| Quote: | 3:28: For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Those who have faith in Jesus have been declared righteous and they have been justified, they are now righteous and are just. |
Correct, inasmuch as they are of Faith.
| Quote: |
Hmm...why did Paul write what he did? Why did Paul say what he did? I dunno, because he suffered from acute schizophrenia...I dunno. I'm not Paul. When I become Paul (or see him), I'll ask him why he did what he did! |
Need I really clarify my question? Alrighty then.
Why did Paul bother to warn the just, as you would have it, of acting unjustly and of the consequences of such?
| Quote: | | Paul says that although you do sin, you are just, you have been considered just and justified, and therefore you should not sin. |
But the just do not sin (1 john 3:8-9).
| Quote: | | Paul repeatedly throughout his literature states that one becomes just by faith in Christ. One is no longer unjust or unrighteous, they are now righteous and are just. You cannot deny this basic truth of Scripture. |
Sure, to the extent that we are in Christ, we are just and righteous. Insofar as we sin, we are of the devil. You cannot deny this basic truth of scripture.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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