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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you." |
This is our primary marching order concerning the correct understanding of prophetic matters. It requires a proactive stance concerning deception in these things. When I first became a Christian I took note of the many opinions that were being expressed at the time (mid 70's). I quickly became aware of much error in understanding prophecy. I struggled a bit but, I came to the following conclusion in the following manner.
When I came to Jesus I was a barefoot hippie who came in off the street into a family that was Christian. I had no wallet, no shoes, no cigarettes, no money. All I had was my worn out jeans, a book of matches and a hard countenance. The man who took me into his family from off the street drove me to his home and I rode quietly in the front passenger seat. We were alone. He asked me, surprisingly, "I bet you need a pack of cigarettes don't you?" I said, "Yeah!" He stopped and got me a pack of Marlboro's and I fired them up. But, after some consideration, I asked myself; "Why did this man who doesn't smoke and doesn't believe it's a good thing, buy me some cigarettes and allow me to smoke them in his car?" After two weeks in his home I concluded that, "It must be this Jesus that they believe in who allows them to love a stranger." I decided to read the Bible. I've always been a avid reader and someone inclined to be self taught. I started reading the good book. It was slow going so I asked the man where I shoud start to read the bible. He said to me, "At the beginning!" I answered, "I tried that but, it's slow going." He asked me, "Where did you start?" I said, " At the beginning...Genesis (I knew it meant 'the beginning') and it was at the front of the Book!" He said to me, "Genesis isn't the beginning of the Bible!" I asked, what he meant...I had learned he was indeed a sober man.
He said that, "The beginning of the Bible is the Gospel of John!" I wanted proof, as is my trait, and he showed how,
| Quote: | | Genesis 1:1 read-"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." |
Whereas,
| Quote: | | John 1:1 read, "In the beginning was the Word..." |
I understood him and give this advice to everyone to this day.
So, I began to read the Gospel of John. By the time I came to John 3:16 and after very precise reading I knew what the Book was saying. It was saying...in my own words...Jesus of Nazareth was testified by the man John the Baptist, as being:the Word of God,who was in the beginning with God,and was God, and who had become a literal "flesh and blood" man. The Word of God made flesh! That this Jesus was; the Truth!
I had been searching all my life for two things..love and truth! I made a decision that since my ideas of truth were always proven false I would accept Jesus as the Truth. I decided, before I read any further, that no matter what he said, I will believe him. When I read John 3:16 I read it carefully. I realized that I was a "whosoever". So, I believed on Jesus and accepted eternal life.
The man watched me, as good stewards are apt to do. And, so on a Wendsday the pastor of the church they attended showed up at the house. He asked me if I didn't mind to pray and receive Jesus Christ into my heart. I said, "Sure!" We prayed, and then the pastor said to me..."Come on down the aisle at the altar call on Sunday and then I'll baptize you." I said, "OK."
When I sat on the back pew I to this day do not remember a word of anything that pastor preached. The Holy Spirit was there convicting my heart of my sin nature and saying, "Come and follow Jesus". But, the devil was there also, and he threatened me, "If you go to Jesus you'll lose everything you have." I didn't have much but what I had or wished to have I wanted really bad. But, I went forward and was baptized and was indeed "born again".
I mention this because, I soon grew to know the Bible. Some people get gifts like tongues. But, when I believed on Jesus I received "enlightenment of the written word". I discovered that God's answer to all my questions are in the Bible. I was taught to resist any re-translation of it and to not depend upon the opinion's of others but, to expect God to fulfill his promise to have the Comforter lead me personally into "all truth".
I have found that God doesn't rely upon non-scriptural sources to establish his word. It's all in the Book. Prophecy isn't an exception. I have discovered that God defines his own words and phrases. For example, the reference I used that related Paul's statement "times and seasons" to Jesus statement, "times and seasons".
In the book of God it appears that many men wrote it but, that it isn't true. God wrote it, and when we accept that truth, we begin to discover that he corresponds his use of words, phrases, symbols and types with utter consistency from cover to cover. If you think about it you'll realize that truth, of necessity demands it. When God defines a symbol in the Book it never changes it's meaning. Thus, we grow in knowledge by comparing scripture with scripture and building up.
I'll give some examples and leave you with the proofing.
Sea=the world without boundaries. (no reference to nations) So, the beast which rises up out of the sea will not arise out of any one nation but from among all nations. And so it has begun.
Four= the four corners of the earth. So, when we see a horse ride forth it's four hoofs tell us that it is a world wide movement and not a movement on a smaller scale. And, so it has, begun. The four horns of the altar's mean that all the issues of the earth and it's world are dealt with there.
Horn= raw power. Thus it often means specifically; army. A king has a horn because he has an army. But, horn doesn't mean army it means raw power.
Six= issues of man. Thus, the six water pots tell us that a man must be emptied of self, cleansed, and refilled with new water and then the power of the Holy Ghost will change that man into a new wine.
Water= word+spirit. Thus, a man must be refilled with the pure word of God. You can’t separate God’s word from spirit.
This is how I shall proceed.
I use only the AV Bible and consider all other versions corruptions.
I won’t debate this here. You use what you wish. But, my answer’s stand or fall on the quote of a verse in the total context of the Book. I will stand corrected by any AV verse brought to enlighten any discussion. I may respond to other translation quotes but, I will most probably correct you with the AV. I won’t do this haphazardly. That is; I will show by definition and use that the AV word choice is the more precise. I have never found any example to proof out otherwise.
This gives us a tremendous advantage. Mainly because, it puts everyone on the same page. Which is the main reason that Satan provides endless versions…division.
Truth has no versions!
This is how I myself have and do take heed. I trust what God put into my hand when he led me to Jesus and I don’t care how it got there. I don’t care what people think that the people back in Bible days thought because we weren’t there anyway. And, God who wrote the book knows all about how to talk directly to any man of any age. For those who think the AV is hard to read. I tell you it is worth the effort.
Joman. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Matthew 24:5 “For many shall come in my name, saying, I’am Christ; and shall deceive many.” |
Christ means: The Anointed one. The word means “anointed” but, as a name it means “Anointed”, and in reference to the Hebrew title "Messiah" it is rendered “the Anointed one”, because there isn’t another.
Jesus is saying that many people will come into the church in the name of Jesus claiming that they are “anointed”. And, by that “anointing” they will usurp authority. This tactic may seem unlikely to work as a deception until we realize this. They will come into your church in the name of Jesus saying, "I’am the Anointed". They won’t be saying "I’am the Christ".
The influence of the new age in churches corresponds to this tactic. You surely have heard men on tv making this claim. There are many now, and many more to come. The teaching of the “anointing” as taught by many is a deception. The new age movement isn’t hard to recognize in it’s heathen garb (occultic). But, it is harder to notice in it’s Christian wool. Here’s what I have been taught.
The simple way to discover it’s influence, in all it’s manifestations, is to note that Satan takes the things that belong to Jesus Christ and, simply transfers them to someone else, or to an institution. So, in the above case Satan takes the idea of the “anointing” that is on the head of Jesus and applies it to other people apart from the headship of Jesus.
| Quote: | Psalm 133:1-3
(1). Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
(2.) It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron’s beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
(3) As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even for evermore. |
Aaron is a type of Jesus Christ as the High Priest. But, Jesus is of the order of Melchisedek, in that, he is typed by Melchisedek as the eternal; High Priest. The ointment is the Holy Spirit who rested upon Jesus of Nazareth at his baptism by John the Baptist. This Psalm tells us that, the Holy Spirit as the anointing oil, is poured upon the head: Jesus. It is only poured upon the head of Jesus. Holy Spirit is then applied to all the garment of Jesus and covers the body of Christ as a collective entity. The point I’am wanting to clarify is that, the anointing applied to Jesus isn’t transferred to other individuals as a seperate gift. We as the body of Christ benefit by this anointing but, we cannot separate it from the head who is Jesus. The deceiver applies the idea of being “anointed” to himself as a individual. Note that the Psalm shows us in the first verse that, the anointing oil, which is the Holy Ghost, is the cause of unity. Love is the perfect bond of unity and, the Holy Spirit is the source of the love of God that is manifested in the body of Christ. No man but, Jesus can claim the “anointing” for themselves. People operating in the ministering of whatever gifts they exercise, operate by faith, “under” the anointing. That is; they move in the spirit (the Christian’s own) under the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never does his own exclusive will but, only testifies of Jesus and does the will of the Father via the Son. The new age movement teaches that Jesus became “Christ” at his baptism. Then they add that we can, all of us, achieve ‘christ-ness’ or ‘christ-hood’. They mean that we as individuals can take the anointing Jesus has and go do with it as we might please.
(Matthew 24:5) tells us that men shall enter the church in the name of Jesus and claim they are “anointed”. Jesus then adds that they shall deceive many. This can only be due to disregarding the previous warning to take “heed”. Once we Christians accept that some man is “anointed” (apart from the “headship of Jesus”) that man can then mislead in his teaching while exercising false gifts. The defense for us lies in the headship of Jesus. It is the head that has the mind and the mouth to speak. Therefore, we must recognize the need to test all things by the written word of God.
You will see how this above tactic will play out as a end time strategy that gains insistent momentum.
To show how deep the proper thought of anointing is please consider this.
Mt. Hermon is defined:
| Quote: | | Deuteronomy 4:48 “…Sion, which is Mt. Hermon.” |
And, in contrasting Mt. Sinai / Old (earthly) Jerusalem:
Galatians 4:24-25 “Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gendreth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
With Mt. Hermon / New (heavenly) Jerusalem:
| Quote: | Hebrews 12:22-24 “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than of Abel.” |
We see that Psalm 133:3 tells us that the anointing upon the High Priest (Jesus) is, “As the dew of Hermon…” (heavenly Jerusalem). And that, that anointing, like dew, “…descends upon the mountains of Zion:”. "Zion" being the earthly and not the "Sion" which is heavenly. The church on earth is the congregation of "Zion", but, the church in heaven is the congregation of "Sion".
Mt. Hermon can be dimly seen with the naked eye from the Mt of Olives on a good day as a distant prominence. Same as Abraham saw not the earthly Jerusalem made with hands of men but, rather by faith he saw the distant heavenly Jerusalem made without hands.
The anointing rests on Mt. Hermon (Jesus) and is therefore, “of” it. But, the anointing that we minister descends “upon” us. We cannot be it’s source. We cannot transfer it in any fashion except to say that; by the laying on of hands the anointing can be received from God upon a new Christian. The difference is subtle but, deadly. Many people will by the means of the difference receive the influence of devils that will deceive many especially in the area of prophecy. That is because prophecy is the means by which the wise (they who understand these things "before" the time) will obtain direction FOR the heat of the final battle.
The immediately above discussion of Mt. Sion and Mt. Hermon is a good example of what is lost if a person doesn't study using the AV Bible. The correspondance is lost in corrupt versions of the truth.
Joman. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Matthew 24:6 “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.” |
Well this certainly turned out to be a fact of life on this planet eh? Today there are more wars, and rumours of wars, than ever before in history. Our modern technology provides an all day, every day, global, viewpoint of events on earth. And, as we all recognize, I’m sure, there’s a great desire for news that is momentous. The news sells better when the news is bad. Jesus' main point here in this verse is that we Christians ought not to be fearful of world events like the heathen are. And, that keeping free of fearfulness is something we must attend to actively. Reading prophecy well in advance of prophetic fulfillment is one good way to prepare our hearts to remain sober. Secondly, I think that Jesus, in this verse, and some following verses, is specifying what not to focus on when attempting to determine some sense of when the end shall come. In taking “heed” so as not be deceived, we must prepare ourselves to resist any urge to jump to conclusions about end times things. As you well know, after 9/11 there was a definite spike in church attendance. This reveals the fact that many people are inclined to start taking a measure of things differently after a momentous event that threatens their desired, "peace and safety". The world is seeking "peace and safety" and will strive very hard to get it if they can; any way they can. Satan is counting on fearfulness as a motive for many to receive his deceptive lies concerning the return of Jesus. "Terrorism" as now brought ot the fore is the means Satan will use to bring in the intense desire for "peace and safety" which a global government will promise along with prosperity of the ungodly kind (the prosperity of a poor soul).
| Quote: | | Matthew 24:7 “For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.” |
The Roman Empire didn’t allow the Roman Pax (peace) to be tampered with. This is a verse where Jesus shows consumate understanding of the future. Nation, rising up against nation, and kingdom rising up against kingdom, could only occur in the declining phase of the Roman Empire and afterwards. Consider how suprising such a statement is in the light of the way things were at the time Jesus said this on the Mt. of Olives. There are some who are popularizing the idea that all of this discourse and the book of Revelation are past tense events. This verse begins to reveal how that can’t be the case. There will be many other precise examples as you will see. I mentioned “literalness” early on because there are some that say everything prophetic is either, unknowable or at the very least merely symbolic. But, there’s certainly nothing symbolic about wars, rumours of wars, famines, pestilences, nations and kingdoms.
There have been many famines, pestilences and earthquakes since these words of Jesus were spoken. They are increasing in size and frequency. I believe it is wise to expect these kind of events to increase in size and frequency in the same manner as the birthpangs of a woman do. I suspect that if the data of such events were collected and collated, that graphing of the data would reveal a relationship to the average travail of a women giving birth.
There will be no geographic pattern to these events.
| Quote: | | Matthew 24:8 “ All these are the beginning of sorrows.” |
Well, do we agree that the sorrows have begun?
This verse divides the discourse into a distinct section. First, Jesus established his ability to prophesy; with the near in time prophecy that was, “literally” and explicitly fulfilled, and also historically verifiable (the destruction of the temple in 70A.D.). The symbolism is pertinent to both, the near in time, as well as the, far away in time, prophecies. This is because of the underlying "nature" of the warfare between God and Satan (warfare for the hearts of men that resides deep inside the temple of everyman). God’s main goal is to save as many people as can be saved within the confines of his holiness. The sorrows he is speaking of will be global in nature. The whole creation groaneth. The Holy Spirit groans. Birds sing their songs in minor scale. Even the dove is mornful. But, God has determined to work a short work upon the earth. And, no matter how bad things get, it is assured that, the God who created all of us, and loved us enough to send into this world his only begotten Son to save us, will prove, in due time, that his will is the greatest good. One day the tears will be wiped away and none of us will look back ever again. I can’t wait….but…
| Quote: | | Matthew 24:9 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.” |
"Then", means after some indefinate time of the "general prophecy" fulfillment.
This verse is spoken to all disciples of Jesus Christ past, present or future (remember to take heed!). Such persecution began in the days of the early church. Stephen was the first to be killed. But, Jesus is more specifically indicating a more distant time. One way of reading this is to understand that as the gospel spreads throughout the world each nation that encounters the gospel of Jesus Christ and his Christians will one at a time show hatred for God’s people. Jesus said that, if the world hates me they will hate you. Whoever, is not for Jesus is; against him (antichrist spirit). Another way to read this is to understand that the time will come that all nations collectively shall hate us. This I consider to be more precise. I believe that because many scriptures affirm that a global persecution is coming. And, the fact that this prophecy gets more and more specific. Lets look at that closer later on.
In consideration of upcoming verses I want to point out something in this verse. I believe Jesus is being specific. He says in this verse that Christians will be ”hated of all nations for my name’s sake”. Being hated for the name of Jesus isn’t the same as being hated for preaching the gospel. I believe that Jesus is telling us that first; the name of Jesus will go into all nations, ahead of the gospel with it’s missionaries. This has been and is occuring at this time in history. Radio and TV, using sattelites and via the electromagnetic spectrum has provided this opprotunity. The name of Jesus is being broadcast into almost all the world; today. But, it doesn’t correspond to the gospel being preached. Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world…” But, we haven’t gone. The people of the world need more than, voices and faces, over the airwaves. They are in need of real men and women to demonstrate the veracity of the gospel we preach. People with skin. People they can watch closely (as I once did). People who can erase the false image of Jesus and his gospel that is rampant on the TV and radioes today. God’s method hasn’t changed. We need men like Paul and Peter. And, it will happen. Persecution highlights the character of God's children better than anything else.
I will share with you something that God showed me in the early eighties. God told me that, "America is as Jerusalem was in the early day’s of the church". The early church didn’t fulfill the command of Jesus to, “Go…”, until persecution came. Satan, used his global power and influence (as was qualified on the high mountain during the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, after Jesus had fasted forty days and nights) to build a Roman Empire. The Satanic purpose of the Roman Empire was to build a empire that provided many roads, military outposts, and quick communication to find the promised Messiah when he came and to kill him. The decree of Augustus, that was sent unto all the empire, commanding a census of the people for the purpose of taxation; wasn’t coincidence, at all. Satan knew, by the book of Daniel, that the time wa close at hand for the promised Savior to come. We see how he was present to hear the wise men tell their story and to incite Herod’s lust for power, so as to, kill the child. It isn’t coincidence that, abortion has come about as a government edict to slay the innocent, either. Jesus, escaped to Egypt. Our children have been attacked to hinder the great harvest that God is calling for on the near horizon. Anyway, the roads and communication lines of Rome, were the reason that the gospel spread as quickly as it did! And, the globalization and it's soon to arise government will provide the means for a rapid harvesting of the earth for Jesus! And, the impetus for the early church was a persecution that began in Jerusalem. We, in America have the Bible, and the gospel. But, we haven’t gone forth either. The persecution which is coming will send forth many people into all the world. The Devil, has flooded our land with people from every nation, to infect us with pagan religion and false gospels. But, the tables will be turned over. And, people of every language, nation and tongue shall return back the way they came with the good news. Persecution is coming to America. Much of what you’ve seen in the recent decade is a "true poling" of the people as to what we truly believe. When Satan is assured, that we have indeed conformed to the image of the world in large enough numbers, he will attack. But, God is ready. And, the revival of the gospel will be what incitea the attack. Satan, has learned the hard way that, persecution spreads Christianity. Satan, prefers a suprise attack, and is seeking to spread a net over all the earth so Christians haven't any place to go. (..except to Jesus!) The internet is free right now so it can grow exponentially. But, we are being observed and freedom on the net will someday be restricted.
Right now the name of Jesus is going forth into all the world. And, the name of Jesus will and is stirring up the hornets.
| Quote: | Psalm 2:1-4
“Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.” |
The “heathen” are all those who are unbelieving people.
They rage because of the name of Jesus. It’s the same reason all heathen rage. They are working very hard at searing their conscience, and after working that hard, they certainly don’t want anyone else taking it’s place. Jesus, stands in the way of what they want. The world wants the prosperity of God but, they don’t want Jesus Christ. They want what the good book denies them to have legally. Christians will be declared, “scapegoats”. Lucifer shall incite them.
They imagine a vain thing. Vain means profitless-conceit. They imagine it because of technology and the influence of spirits. The word “imagine” is a play on words. It is the “I”…”MAGE”. Mage is the root of magician. Simon the Magician merely wanted to possess the means to do do wonders and cared not for Jesus or his gospel. The secret of the “occult” is simple. A man or woman takes a “word” and confesses it with “will” power. (inhanced by the authority of a principality of the Satanic realm: their names are hidden:Satan's is the most hidden but is equal to 600, 60 and 6) While doing so the person holds forth the “image” of the thing in his mind/heart. The “I” is the prideful “WILL” that excercises the false faith of Satanic doctrine. The “image” is necessary since the heathen doesn’t have the real faith of a Christian. All who walk by "sight" need an "image" like a blind man needs a cane. The vain thing doesn’t appear vain because they cannot “see” the Lord in the heavens who is sitting and laughing at them and will openly prove their vanity. When he openly proves their “vainity” they will be openly "derided" by the wise. Satan's desire for the world is a "I-Mage-nation" that will-worships him via an idol.
The “conspiracy”, which we aren’t supposed to consider possible, is begun among the kings and rulers of the earth. The conspiring is expressed by the phrase…”take counsel together”. Kinda like "setting gas prices" to pay bills, save for a future venture, control of the economy, social engineering of opinions and habits or, all of the aforementioned reasons; at once. The Bible says that, the antichrist will enter into the “fattest provinces”. Hang with the fat cats, you know? They like to be flattered and they’re ready for the slaughter.
The “conspiracy” is against the Lord who sits in the heavens and against his only begotten Son: Jesus. These folks are tired of Jesus’ morality, and influence over people. Jesus, has a tendency to produce real faith with a backbone. Similar to back when the AV Bible was being “authorized”. In those days the kings of the earth who knew about God’s intention of letting the common man read his word….:wept. Why? Because they feared the loss of the divine right of kings and an undercutting of their authority. Jesus had the same effect on the leardership of the synagogue of Satan didn’t he! (The religious leaders (pastors, priest, bishops, popes), the scribes (intellectuals and scholars), the legalists (all of the others plus lawyers) and govenors (kings, emperors, principalities).
The essence of their intent is to “break their (Father, Jesus, Holy Ghost) bands asunder”. They don’t realize it’s a perfect bond of love. And they want to cast their cords away from themselves. The bands are on the conscience of the people (masses under their thrall…they hope...fully). Bands like- free will objections to oppression and immorality. Reprobates hate a good conscience…even yours. “Cords away from us” is the descernment the conspirators have that tells them they are restricted in what God will allow them to do. Troubling for conceited people who are dead set on getting some vanity.
This is the conspiracy you’ve either begun to notice or will be forced to see soon. Men’s hearts will fail them at the sight of it. The wise already see it. That’s the advantage of wisdom.
These things are occurring now.
Joman. |
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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Wow, a lot of good information Joman. I am sorting through more of it now. Thanks for sharing. I will give you my thoughts on it once I have finished.
Long winded is ok with me! I have been accused of such myself time and again. |
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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| joman wrote: | Requiem/Jim,
I would like to begin if I may with this verse.
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I thought this first post was well written. I think we are in complete agreement thus far. I would like to add a few thoughts of my own to this first post.
Verses 37-39 preserve Jesus' last recorded public words to Israel. Jerusalem, the city of David, the city where God revealed himself in his temple, had become known as the city that killed the prophets and stoned those sent to her. Stoning to death, prescribed in the law of Moses for idolatry (Deut 17:5, 7), sorcery (Lev 20:27), and several other crimes, is also laid down in the Mishnah (M Sanhedrin 7:4) for false prophets. So everything that follows is to Jerusalem, not to the world. This indicates a local event, not a global.
| joman wrote: |
I would like to begin if I may with this verse.
Matthew 23:38 wrote:
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
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This verse may allude to both Jeremiah 12:7 and 22:5. "Your house" in this context could refer to Jerusalem, since the lament is first addressed to her, to Israel, or to the temple in whose precincts Jesus was preaching (Mt 21:23; 24:1) and whose destruction was about to be predicted (24:2). There seems to be no need to choose only one of these options; all three are closely allied and rise and fall together. If "desolate" (eremos) is not part of the text, the verse means "your house is abandoned to the consequences of your misdeeds". More probably eremos is original and makes the implied destruction explicit. Your "house" is left to you (i.e., abandoned), whether by God (as in Jer 12:7) or Jesus (cf. Mt 24:1), who is "Immanuel," "God with us" (1:23). The verb "left" (aphietai) can mean "abandoned to enemies," not just "abandoned." But since the ideas are related, a choice is unnecessary.
| joman wrote: |
The following verse is pertinent also but, I wanted to stress the 28th verse, of the 23rd chapter, of Matthew's Gospel.
Matthew 23:39 wrote:
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
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The quotation is from Psalm 118:26 (also in Mt 21:9; cf. 21:42 for another quotation from this psalm). The words may have been used by the priests in greeting the worshipers at the temple. Jesus, too, the true locus of Israel, must come, victorious and exalted, and receive greetings and homage from the religious authorities. What Matthew refers to is perfectly clear. The Greek literally translated reads "You will not see me from now aparti until you say", and aparti is tied to the consummation (cf. 26:29, 64). Thus 23:39 looks, not to Jesus' resurrection appearances, but to his parousia. When he returns, all will acknowledge him. The context strongly implies that the Parousia spells judgment (cf. 24:30-31; Philippians 2:9-11; Rev 1:7); but the quotation of Psalm 118 keeps open the way Jesus will be received as consuming Judge or welcomed King. But whatever the outcome, the immediate prospect is disaster: "for I tell you, you will not see me, etc."; i.e., the proof that judgment is imminent is that Jesus turns away and will not be seen again till the End.
So Jesus leaves the temple and goes away (24:1); and his words, which have dealt with judgment on Israel and with the consummation, evoke his disciples' two pronged question (24:3) and lead to the Olivet Discourse (chs. 24-25).
---More to come later on your other posts as time permits--- |
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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requiem,
the word of GOD continues, until HE stops it it doesn't stop. it just revolves. |
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joman
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Requiem,
I will consider your post carefully. I will respond. Thank you.
Joman. |
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joman
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Matthew 24:9 “And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.” |
The word, “then” marks a point that must be understood to be, ‘AFTER’ the previous stated prophetic event. This is quite helpful. Sometimes it is contrary to our preconceived thought on end times prophecy. But, so be it. Better that we get our facts right and see were the truth leads us than, to hold to false conclusions. Who knows how great damage is done by a little error.
| Quote: | | “Many shall be offended” |
It isn’t difficult to see why the people in this circumstance are offended. But, they shouldn’t be. Jesus told us that it is inevitable that offences come but, Woe! Jesus said, unto the ones by whom the offence comes. But, it is the reaction to offence that reveals the true heart of a person.
The offences were decribed in the previous verse.
They are: (1) Being delivered up (like lambs to the slaughter) (2) Affliction (3) The killing of Christians (4) Hatred of Christians.
(1). Being delivered up to affliction.
The being “delivered up” is a despised thing for many people. Many reason it can’t be the will of God to allow it. Some would reason that if it occurs, it must be because, God is mad at the people being delivered up. The truth is that Jesus has already warned us ahead of time. Take “heed” that you be not deceived. The underlying premise of the, so called, ‘prosperity gospel’ is the idea that God blesses the faithful with wordly treasure. This is of course contrary to the teaching of Jesus who told us to seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and it’s righteousness, that riches are deceitful, not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing, and that our treasure is to be in heaven where our heart should be. There are many such sayings of Christ. Jesus said that in the world we shall have tribulation. We are therefore to expect it. Jesus also told us what our reaction ought to be. We are to overcome evil with good, turn the other cheek, bless them that curse us and again, many other such statements.
I want to point out here that early on in this discourse Jesus is showing us how we ought to prepare our hearts and minds for tribulation. Now, consider the effect of many of the popular teachings that people hope are true.
False prosperity: contrary to the “prosperity of the soul”.
The secret rapture.
That evil only comes to the deserved.
The word/faith equation that demands that God give us whatever we wish.
The ‘once saved I’m always saved’ no matter if I’m faithful or not.
The doctrine that the end time events (such as the Great Tribulation) have already occurred.
All of these undermine the proper attitude of a Christian with respect to the Great Tribulation which is coming upon the whole earth against the saints of God. We’re being set up even at this moment. We will discuss this in fuller detail later.
(2). The affliction itself is offensive.
This is obvious but, let us keep in our hearts the words of God that prepare our hearts to withstand affliction. Remember that, “fiery trials worketh patience”. That, patience has it’s own reward, the saving of our soul. That , affliction is only for a little while. That, one day the Lord will indeed come. That, we shall forever be with Jesus. That, Jesus endured the cross, and it’s shame; alone but, we are not alone, as he promised. That the glory of God resides on the faithful who overcome. That we ought not to love our lives even unto the death. That, we shall be helped with a little help. That many others have gone through the same. There are so many scriptures.
It behooves us to understand prophecy correctly ahead of time. If we fail to do this we are unwise and the consequences may be fatal. This is one of the main reasons for prophecy. It is to strengthen the heart and faith of the people who go through the predicted evil.
(3). The killing of Christians.
This is basically the same as affliction. But, some people may endure affliction with the secret hope that soon it may be over and then they can get back to some normal life in this world. Or, consider the person wo hasn’t been afflicted but, who is awakened at 4 o’clock in the morning and must decide quickly whether to remain faithful to Jesus or die immediately. Remember Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. They had the right attitude of faith. They said to king Nebuchadnezzar that, “…We are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it so be, our God is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thy hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee,O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.” Now ole Nebuchadnezzar did rage, and the future conspirators against Jesus and his ‘generation’ will also. Note that ‘rage’ is the word is used in (Psalm 2) also, (the AV is like that consistently so that we can get the message and connect the dots). “Nebuchadnezzar” is a type of the ‘Antichrist’ who is to come. And, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are a type of end time saints that overcome, not by avoiding but going through the fiery trial. And, Daniel is the type of ‘elect’ who does exploits and whose wisdom allowed him to avoid being present at the idolitrous worship service of the pagan king.
(4). The hatred of the nations.
Jesus said that, If any man deny him on earth that person would be denied by Jesus before his Father in heaven. ‘Once saved always saved’ won’t help a person confronted with a “NOW FAITH”situation. There’s no comfort for a denier of Jesus even if he once thought he’d never deny Christ. Your faith better be in your heart and your mouth at all times. Satan’s hoping it won’t. Hatred of the name of Jesus and thus those associated with his name is the source of the determination to spill the blood of the innocent saints no matter how nice they really are. No doubt in my mind that Cain hated his brother simply because he was in good standing with God and had obeyed him. Joseph was hated of his brothers and yet he was their deliverer. So, we ought to be the same as Jesus told us to be. Think about it. What better way for God to make his case before the eyes and ears of all the world than to have the innocent saint forgive the murderers even as they stone him unjustly. Stephen, is a type of the saints who are to be the catalyst of the persecution called the Great Tribulation. Such a witness is necessary so that the weaker saints will be emboldened by the courageous faith of the wise saint who leads the way.
We’ve been looking at the proper stance we Christians should have in tribulation. Now we must look at what Jesus says will occur.
Many Christians (or thought to be) will be offended. Their not “offended” at the heathen. They’re offended at Jesus. They are the people who have believed false doctrines. And, whose faith is weak. They betray the Christians they once knew. And, they hate them. The phrase “hate one another” is the phrase that tells us that they are Christians betraying Christians. Whether or not a person believes the traitors ever really were Christians doesn’t matter. The fact remains that churchgoers will betray churchgoers. Just like Judas betrayed Jesus as soon as he discovered that the gospel doesn’t equate to wordly gain. Notice how Jesus let the thief carry the bag of church money. Don’t know many pastors who would allow that do you? And, Jesus knew about it didn’t he? Jesus was serious when he said, “Be anxious for nothing”, “Let the dead bury dead” and, when he said, “Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s”.
One benefit of tribulation is that God’s glory is seen in the love of the true Christian for one another.
All of this verse concerns the response of Christians to a world that brings tribulation to the saints. But, the verse in question is not the timing of the Great Tribulation as you’ll see. Jesus will get more, and more, specific about timeing. Keep this in mind.
Joman. |
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joman
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Matthew 24:11 “And many false prophets shall rise and deceive many.”
The word “And”informs us that this rise of false prophets occurs at the same time as the preceding verse.
I would like at this point to explain the timing indicators more fully.
Look at verse ‘nine’ --- it begins with the word “Then” and marks the end of the “general description” of a unspecified length of time, that began at verse ‘five’ and ended with verse ‘eight’. The “And then” of verse ‘eleven’ marks the beginning of a time in church history that will stand out by the following ‘description given’. And, also by the fact that, what is described will occur ‘after’ the time period that matches the “general description”.
I use the term “general” because, the things described are specified, as not being useful for the determination of ‘when’ the “end” will come (see verse six). That, the things are said to be the “beginning of sorrows” (verse ‘eight) informs us of their generality also.
The rise of “false prophets” is due to the desire of many people to get a immediate and timely word from God. Such a word is greatly desired in times of need. When times are good people tend not to pray as readily as they will in times when they are in dire need of answers. Many won’t even seek prophecy unless evil times demand it. I’ve have myself seen many come to me seeking answers from the Bible when threatened by divorice, job loss, sickness or death. Fear is the great motivator. And, fear must be challenged and defeated by faith in something or someone able to deal with the circumstance from which the fear arises. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Noah moved with fear of the Lord to build the ark that saved his household. Often we only get going when the thing that gives rise to fear is close upon us. Wisdom affords not only answers for difficult situatuions but, also a forwarning that is much further ahead of those who lack it. I think this verse tells us that, if we disregard this discourse and, the prophetic parts of the Bible that are associated with it, we will be greatly tempted to seek false prophetic utterances in times of emminent danger. One reason is the lack of preparation due to not having studied prophecy and the word of God in general. Another reason is the desire to have our evil lusts rationalized. There are many examples in the Old Testament where we read of how in dire times men listened to false prophets. There will be “many” false prophets because, Satan uses ‘popularity’ and ‘majority opinion’ to sway the masses of people. Also, there will be a need for many false prophets to enter into the many ‘assemblies’ of Christians. This is especially true when Christians need to go underground in times of persecution.
Many will deceived. This tells us that the tactic used by Satan is quite successful. How sad that will be. Nevertheless, this is God’s way. He is committed to our exercise of faith. Men feared when the flood came we can be sure. But, Noah feared a hundred and twenty years in advance of it. He had faith and was wise and therefore, prepared. The unbelieving world was not prepared.
The false prophets will “rise”. This tells us that they were not noticed until they arise, ‘after’ the persecution begins. This is notable in the realization that, if they had indeed been prophets they would have been about the business of warning the people in advance, as Noah did. They however, rise up afterwards. The fact that people accept them is indicative of the mood of the people to have their ears scratched. False prophets are basically “gainsayers”. They love popularity and will ride the wave of it. They are more like salesmen than any thing else and life insurance tends to be their policy. The rise on the swell of the majority need for comfort apart from the Holy Spirit and God’s written word. They are “usurpers” of the authority of the prophetic office and will disregard the scriptural statutes concerning how to establish prophetic utterances. The people (majority) won’t suffer any limiting of the false prophetic utterances by scriptural injunctions,
During this time period (Matther24:12) says that, “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax.”
This tells us that people who once did “love: shall wax cold in like manner as the moon growing larger night after night. Little by little. We have all seen this process occur in recent decades since the mass acceptance of tv viewing. Iniquity is understood by myself to be best described as, the ‘muck and mire’ of the streets, When sin abounds it is as it was for the ‘prodigal son’ who found himself living in a pigs sty, We all sin and must confess from time to time. But, iniquity is more like ‘wallowing’ in it. This is not only a societal condition but, the condition of may a human heart also. Men’s hearts get fatter and fatter and they become the more and more dull of hearing. It’s like the ‘false bible versions’ phenom in that it seem’s that the more we have the more that are reequested until we are wallowing in opinions without any benefit of certainty left. I know that I harp on this issue but, if you saw it my way you’d be as fearful as I’am that the situation is becoming beyond fixing; unless the Lord rock the church world somehow.
The waxing cold is something many will seek so they’ll not be bothered by the evil around them. This is similar to the situation in pre-Hitler Germany. If you’ve ever noted how Hitler screamed and yelled you may have realized why. They show us his oration but, we never hear what he was saying. Hitler, my friends, was a preacher! And, the dire staits of the economic circumstances produced a willing audience. They heard an old but, nevertheless, new religion. That religion was --- “theosophy’ customized for the German people. Theosophy is the very thing we now entertain in society as the “new age movement”. The sign of it is the world wrapped by a snake that is eating it’s own tail. It is a symbol of the corruption called “socialism”. The appetite of the generation of vipers is for it’s own flesh and as it feeds upon it’s self it’s grip upon the world increases. (remember Shiavo?) The world becomes smaller and smaller, and under greater and greater pressure. The world (society) is symbolized by a circle within the circumference of the cannabalistic snake. With in that circle is the vortex of the swaztica. It symbolizes the presence in the world of a “void”. Nature hates a vacuum and the result is specified. It is a whirlwind. The whirlwind anniallates the old system to provide space for a new paradigm. The swaztica thus can be understood to represent the “desolation” that leads to an “abomination”.
A cold heart will be set on fire by the unrestrained lust of hatred. This is somewhat expressed by the description of the wildly foolish people who when God scorches their flesh with the fire of the sun (Revelation) they respond with a fist toward the only one who can deliver them. They are “reprobates”. The root of reprobation is pride. And, pride leads directly to worship of self. And worship of self leads to the Antichrist, as he will be the shining example (head of gold) of the new age man who arises evolutionarily amid the harmony of the masses who are to be marked with the secret name of Satan; their god.
Joman |
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joman
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Requiem wrote: | | Verses 37-39 preserve Jesus' last recorded public words to Israel. Jerusalem, the city of David, the city where God revealed himself in his temple, had become known as the city that killed the prophets and stoned those sent to her. Stoning to death, prescribed in the law of Moses for idolatry (Deut 17:5, 7), sorcery (Lev 20:27), and several other crimes, is also laid down in the Mishnah (M Sanhedrin 7:4) for false prophets. So everything that follows is to Jerusalem, not to the world. This indicates a local event, not a global. |
The Olivet Discourse is not for public consumption. It is for the disciples of Jesus Christ. This is known by Jesus taking the disciples outside of Jerusalem to the Mt. of Olives to sit down and speak with them.
In (Matthew 23:1 thru 39) Jesus speaks to the multitudes and disciples about the scribes and Pharisees who sit in the seat of Moses. This discussion ends with verse thirty-nine.
Your idea that Jesus speaking to Jerusalem must mean that everything that follows is to Jerusalem is unfounded. At points in Jesus discourse with the multitudes and his disciples he speaks staightly at the scribes and Pharisees and not the others. The multitudes become witnesses. When Jesus speaks to Jerusalem he names her and personalizes his comments to her. When he talks to his disciples there are no multitudes, Pharisees nor Jerusalem present. Do you think it is without import that Jesus takes his disciples outside of Jerusalem and away from the crowd to answer their questions.
| Requiem wrote: | | This verse may allude to both Jeremiah 12:7 and 22:5. "Your house" in this context could refer to Jerusalem, since the lament is first addressed to her, to Israel, or to the temple in whose precincts Jesus was preaching (Mt 21:23; 24:1) and whose destruction was about to be predicted (24:2). There seems to be no need to choose only one of these options; all three are closely allied and rise and fall together. If "desolate" (eremos) is not part of the text, the verse means "your house is abandoned to the consequences of your misdeeds". More probably eremos is original and makes the implied destruction explicit. Your "house" is left to you (i.e., abandoned), whether by God (as in Jer 12:7) or Jesus (cf. Mt 24:1), who is "Immanuel," "God with us" (1:23). The verb "left" (aphietai) can mean "abandoned to enemies," not just "abandoned." But since the ideas are related, a choice is unnecessary |
Jeremiah 12:7 references the temple of Jeremiah’s day as the house. Jeremiah 22:5 references the king’s palace as the house not the temple.
There’s no reason I can see for any confusion about what the term “your house” is referring to.
The simple contextual fact is as follows.
Matthew 23:38 Behold your house unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Note: The Pharisees and scribes are the ones who sit in the seat of Moses. The seat of Moses is in the temple. The house was left to them. The house couldn’t belong to the Jerusalem since it belonged to the Romans.
Note: Jesus went out of the temple. He didn’t left the city of Jerusalem till after the disciples questioned him.
Note: Jesus is the one who pronounces the temple’s desolation. This show’s he is the one who is in charge of it. It was his Father’s house. It didn’t belong to the generation of vipers whose father is the Serpent.
Note: Cities in prophecy are called “daughters”.
Desolate means empty.
Your doubtfulness as to whether or not the word “desolate” was in the original texts of Matthew’s gospel isn’t shared by me. I believe that the Authorized Version is faithful to the original text.
| Requiem wrote: | | The quotation is from Psalm 118:26 (also in Mt 21:9; cf. 21:42 for another quotation from this psalm). The words may have been used by the priests in greeting the worshipers at the temple. Jesus, too, the true locus of Israel, must come, victorious and exalted, and receive greetings and homage from the religious authorities. What Matthew refers to is perfectly clear. The Greek literally translated reads "You will not see me from now aparti until you say", and aparti is tied to the consummation (cf. 26:29, 64). Thus 23:39 looks, not to Jesus' resurrection appearances, but to his parousia. When he returns, all will acknowledge him. The context strongly implies that the Parousia spells judgment (cf. 24:30-31; Philippians 2:9-11; Rev 1:7); but the quotation of Psalm 118 keeps open the way Jesus will be received as consuming Judge or welcomed King. But whatever the outcome, the immediate prospect is disaster: "for I tell you, you will not see me, etc."; i.e., the proof that judgment is imminent is that Jesus turns away and will not be seen again till the End. |
Jesus’ last words in Matthew 23:39 are prophecy.
Jesus’ statement that, “You shall not see me henceforth till, ye shall say,” is establishing the basis for hhis return. What I mean is that Jesus will return to the Jewish people as soon as they ar willing to admit that "Blessed is Jesus of Nazareth who cometh in the name of God his Father". The disciples wanted a sign….well….here it is. When the Jewish nation can receive Jesus Christ collectively as he ought to be then and only then will Jesus return. This fact may be a primary reason why Satan will attack the Jews to destroy them from off the face of the earth or at least have only Jews left who worship and serve a false God and Messiah. If that were possible then Satan could theoretically prevent Jesus’ return. This compares well with Zechariah chapter fourteen. Remember that Jesus asked, “when the son of man returns will he find faith on earth”. This verse tells us that he knows the answer is Yes!
Joman |
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Stokey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:53 am Post subject: |
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What about Matthew 24:3? It reads: 'What shall be the sign of Jesus' presence [Greek, "parousia"].' (Rotherham) This presence began with the beginning and the continuing of international wars. In 1914, we had the First World War followed 20 years later by the Second! We saw the Spanish Flu followed by the AIDS pandemic. All of these and many others are unprecedented, we are told, since 1914.--Luke 21:10, 11; 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Revelation 6:1-17 agrees with Matthew 24:3-31. After 70 CE, Jerusalem [the kingdom of God] would continue to trampled on by the nations until the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-24; Hebrews 12:22, 28) Jesus said the kingdom would be 'restored after a long time.'--Luke 19:11, 12; Acts 1:6-11.
Daniel chapter 7 points to the succession of world powers, "nations," or Gentiles, that would rule on earth in the meantime. (Daniel 2:31-45) Comparing Daniel 2:44 with Matthew 24:14, we see the "good news" of the 'setting up.' or establishment of God's kingdom in heaven would be preached "to all the nations" before the "end" of all political governments in opposition to the kingdom would come.
Regards,
Stokey. |
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joman
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Stokey wrote: | | What about Matthew 24:3? It reads: 'What shall be the sign of Jesus' presence [Greek, "parousia"].' (Rotherham) This presence began with the beginning and the continuing of international wars. In 1914, we had the First World War followed 20 years later by the Second! We saw the Spanish Flu followed by the AIDS pandemic. All of these and many others are unprecedented, we are told, since 1914.--Luke 21:10, 11; 2 Timothy 3:1-5. |
This is the way I believe Matthew 23:3 reads:
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives,
the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
Tell us, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world." (AV)
You have rendered, "thy coming" as "Jesus' presence". Therefore I have no understanding of your view. The reference to 1914 reminded me of something I've heard about the Jehovah Witnesses' take on prophecy. Is this where your coming from? I guess your saying that the "presence of Jesus" in the world is something that will begin at some time to be noticed by signs? Is that what yoursaying?
You use the "unprecedented" nature of some modern events as equating to end time signs. But, there is much that is unprecedented in the modern world. Solomon however, said, 'there is nothing new under the sun'. So, it is my understanding that the uniqueness of the modern world lies in the global size of things not in the underlying gist of events and technologies.
I read the rest of your post and will deal with some of your points as they come up. I think it is best to plod along carefully.
Joman. |
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: |
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stokey,
that is a lot of talk about 1914. are you a j.w?
please, note that the only reason i am asking is because then i could know where you are coming from and could better follow your post.
i read the watchtower from time to time and have read an old copy of the n.t.w. some years ago.
as a lot of what you say is not clear to me, that would greatly help clear things up.jim. |
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Stokey
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Joman, check the Greek of Matthew 24:3, then ask why Jesus' presence needs a global "sign" extending over decades. (24:37-39) Young reads: "What is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age? As the days of Noah--so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man."
Yes, Jim, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses was settled a long time before there ever was a New World Translation! Of course, doctrine isn't prophecy.
Regards,
Stokey. |
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:25 am Post subject: |
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stokey,
thanks, that makes your position much clearer to me in all threads.jim. |
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