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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TheMessenger wrote: | | Sure I will give you the verses. Let me start out by saying their are many verses that describe these events but due to the limits of time I will only list 1 verse from each of the names I listed. You will have to go to your bible and look the verse up so you can read it. Sorry I am slow typer and I need to go.. |
I will look them up, thanks for giving them. And don't worry about typing slow, I read slow, so we are on good ground here.
| TheMessenger wrote: | Prophecy Againest Damascus - Isaiah 17:1
Damascus Is alive and well today it is the capital of Syria. |
Isa. 17:1-3:
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.
This prophecy already came to pass, Damascus fell. When we read on we realize that the downfall of Damascus would not be an isolated event, for other cities too would be deserted (v.2). The double conjunction of Ephraim and Damascus and of Aram and the Israelites is striking (v.3). Israel had chosen to accept a close link with Damascus; so she had to accept the consequences of that relation ship. A shared purpose involves a shared judgment. The basis of the league between the two nations was chiefly military; and, ironically, it was in military terms that she would suffer, in the loss of her "fortified city." This is no doubt a reference to Damascus, as the fortress that Ephraim herself hoped would protect her from the Assyrians. This doesn’t have anything to do with the “end times” it has already happened.
| TheMessenger wrote: | | Prophecy of the of the Revived Roman Empire. - Daniel 2:24-45 The map of the eu is pretty much a carbon copy of the roman empire's map. |
Please note verse 44:
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
| TheMessenger wrote: | Prophecy of Babylon The Great W-h-o-r-e - Revelation 17-18
The ancient city of Babylon has been found and saddam managed to uncover/rebuild 80% of the ancient city before he was removed from power. |
You are assuming that Babylon in the book of Revelation is the same as the Babylon in the OT. Babylon as depicted in Revelation has been interpreted in a number of ways: as a designation for first century Rome, as a revived Roman empire comprising a ten nation common market, as a literal revived Babylon, or as first century Jerusalem. Since the Book of Revelation was written around 66 AD, we should be looking for a first century application, either Rome or Jerusalem. To understand this, we must determine the time frame from the time texts. Revelation tells us when the events prophesied will be fulfilled (Rev. 1:1; 1:3; 2:16; 3:11; 11:14; 22:6; 22:7; 22:10; 22:12; 22:20).
With the time frame established, we need to examine the historical context using Scripture to interpret Scripture. Jerusalem and Babylon are both called “the great city” (Rev. 14:8; 11:8 ). The Harlot (Babylon) is “drunk with the blood of the saints” (17:6). Compare this with Matthew 23:34-36 where Jesus states that “all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar” will be charged against the generation of Jews who rejected Him and spurned the Holy Spirit. The same theme is used elsewhere to describe Babylon: “And in her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth” (Rev. 18:24). The book of Acts confirms this testimony (Acts 7:51-52). Therefore, there is little doubt that the Babylon of Revelation is the first century city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is often given pagan names in the Bible. The traits of pagan Babylon are used to describe first century Jerusalem just as OT Jerusalem in rebellion shared the traits of Egypt.
| TheMessenger wrote: | Prophecy of the Anti-christ's power - Revelation 13:11-18
As those verses make clear the anti-christ/beast will be pretty much running earth after he gains power until Jesus and his Bride (the church) comes down here and lays the smack down on both the anti-christ/his followers and satan who the anti-christ draws his power. |
There is so much confusion as today as to what the anti-christ is, it is no wonder people don’t understand this passage. I will address the anti Christ in a later post however as it is getting late and I need some sleep. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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1 peter 5:13 t
the church that is at babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you and so doth marcus my son.
tradition says that in the latter part of his life, the great apostle peter was in rome and that is where many believe that he is refering to.
but, in the first century a small town on the euphrates also was named babylon. there is no evidence that babylon was used figuratively as rome till the book of the revelation was written (a.d.95 or so) and the book of 1 peter is believed by most to be dated around the a.d.60's. |
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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| jim stevenson wrote: | 1 peter 5:13 t
the church that is at babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you and so doth marcus my son.
tradition says that in the latter part of his life, the great apostle peter was in rome and that is where many believe that he is refering to. |
Yes, this is what tradition says. This is not something I have researched for myself however. I have seen an opposing view, but have to reason to go with it for now. So I agree that he was probably in Rome.
| jim stevenson wrote: | | but, in the first century a small town on the euphrates also was named babylon. there is no evidence that babylon was used figuratively as rome till the book of the revelation was written (a.d.95 or so) and the book of 1 peter is believed by most to be dated around the a.d.60's. |
That is why I think it is used figuratively for Jerusalem. As for the dating of the Book of Revelation, I beleive it is dated much earlier that 95, more like 67. The evidence used to support 95 is really lacking IMHO. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: |
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requiem,
there are many who believe it was written close to the reign of vespaian! (69-79)and yes, some say at the latter part of nero's (a.d.54-68)or even domitian's (81-96)rule. very, very good.jim (one chip at a time.) |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Requiem,
I think that the term 'rapture' is problematic for many reasons as you are, I'm sure, aware of. As far as I can tell you haven't described what you mean by it.
I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven. I believe that every eye shall see him. That the dead in Christ, as well as those who are alive, and in Christ, shall rise to meet him at his coming. I believe he shall come in the same fashion in which he left. I believe he well step down upon the mount of Olives and deliver the remnant of the nation of Israel and set up government over all the earth in Jerusalem at that time. I believe that Jesus will slay the antichrist and the false prophet at his coming. And, I believe that Jesus will command Satan to be cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years.
As for Matthew 24; it is my belief that a discussion of it is necessary and that it shouldn't be a haphazard one. Would you like to discuss it? By the way I've noted that your comments are not based on scripture but, involve an attitude about the opinions of other men. I don't think much will be learned by paying any attention to popular notions as I have found them to be in Christian bookstores.
To be clear: I don't believe in a secret coming of Jesus in which he comes and he goes without any evidence except missing people and open grave sites. The "rapture" is an attack upon the readiness of the Christian soldier.
The great tribulation hasn't yet occured since it must by definition be the worst ever in history.
Joman. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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joman,
beautiful. jim |
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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Joman,
I agree with much of what you posted. I would love to discuss Matthew 24. I think your comments on the rapture are in agreement with mine. We differ on the tribulation however. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Requiem,
I don’t mind that we disagree. My view on the “great tribulation” is based upon a total view of the warfare between God and Satan. I believe that we Christians are caught in this warfare and therefore, are called to be soldiers. I believe that the rapture view exists for only one reason. That reason is that, many want to comfort themselves with the promise of escape from persecution. The notion that we shall escape undermines the soldier’s resolve as he confronts the storm of war and it’s many battles. And, it sets him up for the “falling away”. I won’t elaborate at this time. I only mention this because I want to be up front so that you will understand the reason for my point of view. There is a great harvest coming and the Lord has put forth a challenge to Satan: When the Son of Man returns, will there be faith on earth? The answer is Yes! Satan says, No! Satan has determined a “great tribulation” to prove Jesus wrong about Christians. God has determined to show forth his glory not only in Jesus on the cross of Calvary but, also by his children as the body and the bride of Christ. So, this is the gist of my view.
Joman. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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joman,
again; beautiful. jim p.s. i agree 110%. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Requiem/Jim,
I would like to begin if I may with this verse.
| Matthew 23:38 wrote: |
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. |
The following verse is pertinent also but, I wanted to stress the 28th verse, of the 23rd chapter, of Matthew's Gospel.
| Matthew 23:39 wrote: |
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. |
These verses are important because they show us the thought of Jesus as he left the temple for the last time. Jesus, as I understand him, had come to the temple to cleanse it. He was rejected as Messiah by the rulers. I don't have the time at this moment but, I will point out that this cleansing is in reference to the book of Daniel. It is required by the law of Moses. The law of Moses teaches us that the true High Priest; Jesus of Nazareth, must cleanse the temple of God with blood. The true temple is in Heaven where the Father sits upon the highest throne. But, the temple of Jesus' day was to serve it's function also. When the "synagogue of Satan" rejected Jesus Christ, he left the earthly temple to them. It was left "desolate" because he, Jesus, was himself the Lord of that temple. The Lord did indeed, suddenly come to his temple. He left it desolate of God, however. As in the days of David, when men served the tabernacle in Shiloh even though it didn't have the "ark of the testimony" in it. Such is the situation even today. The true worshippers of God know that Jesus is the temple of God and they only worship God in spirit and in truth and, that worship is done any place a Christian may find himself.
This statement of the "desolation" of the temple of Jesus' day is directly related to the "abomination which maketh desolate" and the "abomination of desolation". Both phrases being necessary for full comprehension of the matter. The abomination which is coming is a direct result of Jesus' leaving their temple unto them--"desolate". And, the "abomination" when it stands in the Holy Place will "make desolate".
| Matthew 24:1 wrote: |
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. |
It is amazing how distracted the disciples were/are from the spiritual reality of what Jesus said as he left the temple that they found so amazing. Their ignorance of what's going on is due to their lack of faith. Let not our faith be lacking in these matters since, the battle is soon upon us.
Consider Jesus' response to the unwitting disciples interest in the buildings they can see (requiring no faith) as they tour the temple area like country folk who've never been to the city much. But, we Christians need to be ocuppied with the true temple that is built without hands.
| Matthew 24:2 wrote: |
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. |
Jesus said, "See ye not all these things?" because the disciples who thought they'd show Jesus around, were the ones who were blind, and thus, hadn't a clue about the truth of what had happened. Any disciple of Christ in his right mind (the spiritual one) should have immediately realized that the existence of these buildings was no longer of any concern; since, the Master of them, had left them "desolate". Jesus, therefore, questions them so as to get their attention back on the truth of things.
The Prophet, that Moses prophesied would someday come to Israel was Jesus. And, as such, Jesus was therefore required to prophesy a "near time prophecy" so that the further "distant in time prophecy" would be established. Jesus fulfills this need by his prophecy that; "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." In this are to main points.
(1). That the buildings of the temple at the immediate location of the disciples and Jesus are the very buildings, the stones of which, shall be "not left one upon another". And,
(2). That the stones in question will be "thrown" down.
The first point is notable since it is so literal in it's pronouncement and it's fulfillment (70ad) that it instills the expectation of a extreme "literalness" in the fullfillment of the more distant prophetic events to come. It is also notable to me in the realization it affords us concerning the limitations of Satan. Keeping in mind that Satan need only prevent the "throwing down" and/or the "leaving of just one stone on another" to show Jesus to the world as a "not quite" accurate prophet. But, Satan lost his bid to prevent the prophecyy's fulfillment. Why? Because, Satan, with all his might and wit, was unable to control the nature of his own children...namely; covetousness. Not one stone was left upon another because men were greedy for the hope of gold between the stones. Be advised, that, Satan has taken this lesson to his heart, and being the "merchandizer" that he is (Ezekiel 28) he will use the covetousness of mankind to cast a net over all the earth. Even as is now apparent (economic gobalism).
The second point is that the stones would be "thrown" down. This infers violence. And so it happened.
I must go for today. I'll be back as soon as possible tomorrow.
Joman. |
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Requiem
Tadpole
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 17
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Joman,
Thank you for your thought on Matthew. I will print them out and read them. I don't always have much time these days, so I want to read it at lunch and give it due thought. I will look for more should you post it and respond later on in the week (I will be traveling part of this week) |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Requiem,
I'll continue. Thank you for considering these posts.
Joman. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? |
The Mount of Olives is significant.
| Quote: | Zechariah 14:2-3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a great valley; and half the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half toward the south. |
| Quote: | Acts 1:6-12 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey. |
Olives are the source of the golden oil that represents the Holy Spirit in the old testament. The olives are obtained by beating the trees, since the trees are not able to bear the weight of man during harvest. Note that olives can physically type; eyes, corresponding to the vision provided by the Holy Ghost. The oil of the olives also pour into the bowls of the candlestick (Jesus) in the Holy Place and thus enlightens the priests (saints) concerning the shewbread ('word of enlightenment': which is scripture, words of Jesus; illuminated by the Holy Ghost) which is on the opposing wall's table. Beating the olive trees is the way it is done even to this day. So it is with all God’s disciples. They are beaten in the flesh by men of the world and give in return the oil of gladness which is the Holy Spirit. Many examples can be given. The "two witnesses" that stand by the Lord of the whole earth are symbolized by "two olive trees" (Zechariah 4:11-14). There are two witnesses for obvious legal reasons.
Notice that the mount of Olives is the site appropriate for end time prophetic announcement. Also consider that Jesus doesn’t "stand" (that comes later when he assumes military aspect: Stand is a military term for assuming power for direct action of authority:see Daniel) on the day of the Olivet discourse, but instead he sits. This is in line with his desire to teach with patience his disciples, who are in for the disappointment of his death, burial, resurrection and departure, upon a long journey, from which he’ll one day return. The name “mount of Olives” is well fitted to the idea that the church must go through “great tribulation” and will be set as though high upon a hill for the consideration of the dark world we inhabit. As a city set upon a hill cannot be hid so shall the church in great tribulation glorify God in an undeniable way. And, many will be saved because of the love for one another that the Christians will display. And, out of this shall come forth the Holy Ghost as never before demonstrated. And thus, our faith will be undeniable also in the "exploits" yet to be done by saints, at that time, in accordance with the power of the Holy Ghost.
The Acts account points out that the disciples by that time had become aware of some concerns and misunderstandings and so they addressed them by asking, “Lord wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Note that they said, “restore again” the kingdom to Israel. When was the first time? Also see that these early discipes didn't understand the salvation of the nation of Israel as a thing to be soon accomplished, but rather, as something yet be ascertained. Some today think that the early disciples thought Jesus would soon (meaning: in their life times) return. But, they were here informed, that such cannot be thought so, unless, it be concluded that, the uttermost parts of the world have already been visited by disciples of Jesus Christ with his saving gospel. Such conclusion can be claimed, as can anything else, but, it cannot be documented as 'fiat accompli'.
Jesus tells them that it is not for them to, “know the times or the seasons”. This sounds contradictory but, of course it isn’t. Paul said to the Thessalonians concerning the “times and the seasons” that, they (II
| Quote: | | Thes. 5:1-2) “…have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” |
In complete context we begin to understand. Christians are to know what they’ll need to know because they are full of the light of the Holy Ghost and walk with Jesus in the light. The phrase “times and seasons” implies that people desire a 'numberline' that can specify a 'date for the fulfillment of prophecy' concerning the return of Jesus Christ, and his restoration of the kingdom of God, to Israel. This isn’t God’s means. God’s means is sign posts. And, signs are replete in the Matthew account of the Olivet discourse. Jesus wants us to sit down and think about his discourse.
Jesus informs them that, the Holy Ghost is coming (the one to lead them into all truth) and he will impower them to do the will of God. And, that will is to take the gospel of Jesus Christ into all the world even to the “uttermost” parts. Jesus will not return till the stated will of God is accomplished.
The men in white apparel are men not angels. This is directly stated and corresponds to the saints who provide understanding for Daniel himself.
| Quote: | | (Daniel 8:13) “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said to that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrafice, and the transgression of desolation, to give bothe the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” |
So, we can begin to see that the "desolation of the temple" by Jesus (not to be confused with the abomination of desolation), that immediately preceded the Olivet discourse, is intimately connected with the understanding of all these matters. And saints, not angels, are the ones that understand these things. That we don’t need to know “times and seasons” is true. But, we a privy to much more specific details that, only reveal themselves, at the hour of reckoning. We remain "sober and watchful" because we know that these serious matters will be coming to pass if we live long enough and we are expected to understand their import at that time. This is the way of a general with his troops isn’t it? God is hiding the truth from the unbelieving but at the same time he is revealing it to the faithful. We the ‘elect’ of God in Christ Jesus have the Holy Ghost and are being shown the truth while the unbelieving stumble about in the dark. Jesus’ coming will not overtake us unaware. But, not every Christian is wise, as God in Jesus demanded of us, to be. The unwise, although Christian, are not able to count the number of the beast in time to escape the influence of the “mark” of Lucifer (Lucid-cipher) for instance. I for one have been taught as early as the mid seventies, what time it is, and ,that the books that were sealed (Daniel) are now open.
The mount of Olives is on the east of Jerusalem and is in accordance with why Jesus the Messiah is known to someday return and enter through the eastern gate. This is why Jesus took the disciples there to discourse end time things. It expresses the reason for the divine comma of Jesus' missionary announcement with respect to Isaiah (Isaiah 61:2) and is refferred to directly in the parallel (but not identicalat all) discourse of Luke (Luke 21:22 and verse 24).
Note that the return of Jesus Christ is understood to be, as “literal” as his ascention.
Jesus will return in a cloud. However, “clouds” is more correct since the cloud of witnesses grows with time.
(Matthew 24:3) informs us that these things are a private matter. However, what is revealed to us secretly is to be shouted from the housetops. The privacy Jesus took advantage of is necessary due to the prying eyes and ears of the enemy. That is why much of what Jesus says is in symbolic form. It is so as to, prevent even Satan from the understanding that the “elect” have.
Three questions are asked.
(1). When shall these things be?
(2). What shall be the “sign” of thy coming?
(3). What shall be the “sign” of the end of the world?
These are the stepping stone questions that Jesus uses to reveal far more than the disciples either hoped to know, or thought to ask.
Joman.
Excuse my long windedness but, I don’t know how else to proceed.
Consider why it is important to know that the mount of Olives is "a sabbath day's journey" from Jerusalem. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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joman and requiem,
as i'm overloaded in other forums, i won' t have time to put much into this one. but i will read all of each of your post and drop a line every now and again if i think it will help. keep it up you're both doing well. your brother in HIM. jim |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Same here, guys. reading and enjoying. Lots of edification. Please continue.  |
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