End Times Debate

Requiem · Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: End Times Debate

Hi all,
I am new to these boards, and thought I would jump right in.

I have several differing views on the "End Times" and would like to see how they hold up.

1. I do not believe the Bible supports a rapture.

2. I believe the "Great Tribulation" has already happened.

I cannot find any clear passage in the Bible that tells us there will be a rapture. I also believe that the events spelled out in Matt. 24 are refering to a local area, not a global event.

Thanks

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

requiem, love you brother. please read my response to you on baptism.
i love the word of GOD, it is one of my only hobbies and would enjoy debating with you as i am new to this site too. but before we start let us agree to love no matter what is said. now, let's go. but, befoe we can talk about "the rapture" i need to know what you consider it to be and why you don't believe in it. but know this, i don't either not in the traditional view, anyway, but i can't say more till you tell us why you don't as this is subject. as far as the great tribulation already happening, again you need to tell us why you think this before we can discuss it, because again you brouth up the subject and it is impossible to debate with someone if they don't say why they believe what they proclaim. it is a standard etiquite and a rule in must officiated debates to explain why you stand where you do and not just to state where you stand especially in opening arguements. it would be different if you started by asking why does anyone believe in the rapture and when was or will be the tribulation. but, we can discuss matt. 24 you said you think it refers to a local area. what area and how large? for in vs.7 nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in divers (different) places. so in this verse it is not local. vs.14 the gospel being preached to all the world. not a local area. vs.27 his return as lighten from the east to west vs. 31 "they will gather his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. vs.37 -39 refers those days to be like the days of noah when they were eating and drinking and getting married till the day noah entered the ark and HE says they knew not till the flood came and took them all away, the same flood which genesis said destroyed to whole world. so, local area?
please explain.

Requiem · Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:54 pm Post subject:

Requiem · Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject:

Mat 24:21 – First I would challenge you to fit any of these modern day predictions into Matthew 24, especially verse 21. I don’t think they really can be fit into it. I have read time and again that this is the end. Authors who promote such a scenario as being based on “Bible prophecy” ought to be held accountable for their repeatedly mistaken predictions, Lindsey, John Walvoord, etc.

Matthew 24 is where we get the idea of a great tribulation, more specifically verse 21. Time and again I hear how we are “near the end” due to the “signs”. Well, we have been seeing these supposed “signs” for nearly 2000 years now.

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.)

So as you can see the “signs” crowd has been crying the end for a LONG (emphasis only) time and yet, it has supposedly NOT happened because it is supposedly a yet future event. This is why I said that authors who promote such a scenario as being based on “Bible prophecy” ought to be held accountable for their repeatedly mistaken predictions, Lindsey, John Walvoord, etc. Because if the dispensational position is correct and the great tribulation has not happened, then people have been wrong in reading the signs clear back to at least the 300s AD. This does not give me any confidence in the dispensational position of a rapture or a future great tribulation.

Now these signs that are used by all of these date setters or “near” crowd to justify their belief that the rapture (of which there is no Biblical evidence) is the next prophetic event, followed by a great tribulation, the rise of the antichrist, and Armageddon are found in Matthew 24 (as I indicated above in regards to the great tribulation) Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Yet when you read the signs from those chapters, the predictions in them describe conditions prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. That generation would not pass away until all these things took place (Matthew 24:34). It is inappropriate therefore to interpret them so that they are removed from their first century context and their obvious application to the then existing temple and Jewish nation and project them into the distant future.

One reason offered for the belief that the great tribulation is still a future event is the seemingly unqualified statement in Matthew 24:21 “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall” This language is nearly identical to Ezekiel 5:9: “And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.” We know that this passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in the sixth century BC by the Babylonians, and yet Bible commentators who hold out for a yet future great tribulation state that “never again would God execute a judgment like this”. But God did execute a greater judgment in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, and dispensationalists claim that there will be yet an even greater tribulation sometime in the near future. The language of Ezekiel 5:9 and Matthew 24:21 is obviously proverbial and hyperbolic.

While the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was certainly a calamity for the Jews, it is argued that it was not the great tribulation that will take place on a worldwide scale. The tribulation described by Jesus in Matthew 24 was local, confined to Judea. Jesus condemns the scribes and Pharisees (Chapter 23) and tells them that these judgments will come upon “this” that is, their generation (23:36). He mourns over the city of Jerusalem (23:37), not the world, and pronounces judgment upon the temple, leaving it, not a future temple “desolate” (23:38; 24:2).

cont...

Requiem · Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject:

Here is some additional proof that this was to be a local event. The people live in houses with flat roofs (24:17). The Sabbath is still in force with its rigid travel restrictions (24:20). In Mark’s account of the Olivet Disourse we learn that the disciples will be delivered “up to the courts,” “flogged in the synagogues,” and made to “stand before governors and kings” (13:9). Jesus uses similar words in Matthew 10:17-18 when He sends the twelve out as witnesses to Israel: “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.” The Book of Acts records the fulfillment of Jesus’ prediction of religious and political tribulation (4:1-22; 5:17-40; 8:1-3; 12:1-9; 14:19-20; 16:22-23; 22:30-23:11) in the period before the destruction of Jerusalem. The existence of these religious and political tribunals is indicative of what life was like in first century Judea. The tribulation had reference to the Jews, the people of Judea (Matthew 24:16; Luke 21:20-24); it was not a worldwide tribulation.

Those who remained in Jerusalem up until the time of the temple’s destruction had to be able to “see the abomination of desolation” (24:15). People around the globe will have no such advantage if what Jesus is describing here refers to a worldwide tribulation period. The only ones who can benefit are those who can see the temple. The tribulation period cannot be global because all one has to do to escape is flee to the mountains. Notice that Jesus says “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” (24:16). Judea is not the world; it’s not even the nation of Israel!

And there you have my opening statement. Very Happy

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

TheMessenger · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject:

It couldnt have started because the anti-christ has not been reviled and damacus has not been destroyed yet And babylon is not yet a real player on the world stage and last but not least the EU is still much weaker than the USA.

Requiem · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject:

TheMessenger · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject:

Sure I will give you the verses. Let me start out by saying their are many verses that describe these events but due to the limits of time I will only list 1 verse from each of the names I listed. You will have to go to your bible and look the verse up so you can read it. Sorry I am slow typer and I need to go..

Prophecy Againest Damascus - Isaiah 17:1
Damascus Is alive and well today it is the capital of Syria.

Prophecy of the of the Revived Roman Empire. - Daniel 2:24-45
The map of the eu is pretty much a carbon copy of the roman empire's map.

Prophecy of Babylon The Great W-h-o-r-e - Revelation 17-18
The ancient city of Babylon has been found and saddam managed to uncover/rebuild 80% of the ancient city before he was removed from power.

Prophecy of the Anti-christ's power - Revelation 13:11-18
As those verses make clear the anti-christ/beast will be pretty much running earth after he gains power until Jesus and his Bride (the church) comes down here and lays the smack down on both the anti-christ/his followers and satan who the anti-christ draws his power.

Requiem · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:53 am Post subject:

Hi Messenger, thanks for you posts, I will address them both when I get a few moments (hopefully this weekend or sooner).

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

christina,
great point, and right on.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

requiem,
not that i pretend to speak for messenger, but, i think he may be refering to 2thessalonians 2. but it does not say that the tribulation starts with the revealing of the antichrist, just the day of the LORD will not come till he is revealed.

messenger,
maybe he has been revealed and you just didn't catch it. but, you're right about one thing, it is time for us to look up as HE is getting nearer.

TheMessenger · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject:

Yes You are 100% right the anti-christ is going to trick the people of the world. But also many of the people wont care that they were tricked because they dont want to follow the One True God so they will follow the anti-christ. You know the old saying "It is better to reign in hell than serve in heaven". Sad thing is the loyal followers of the anti-christ will belive that.

To answer Jims statment yes I think think the anti-chirst is allready on the world stage. Personally I think the anti-christ is javier solana. I can not be sure about him but one thing I can say, if javier solana isnt the anti-christ his is doing a really good job of controling the power base of the anti-christ.

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456