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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5881
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | "Let US make man in our image..."
Who the heck is Us? |
The Elohim. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Bridget wrote: | | What the Bible teaches is very simple, God sent His Only begotten Son so that we can receive His forgiveness. |
This is no way disagrees with the Trinity. If this has been your only claim then why such the fuss? Trinitarians affirm this completely...I mean after all, we do read the Scriptures.
| Quote: | | First of all let me explain my love for the Old Testament. These are the words that Yeshua Himself would have read in the first century, only He knew them as the Sacred Scriptures and this is why you find so many verses from the Old Testament quoted in the New. The Apostles were Jews. Jew originated from God and were to be His people. How can you look at the Old Testament and see anything having to do with Yeshua being the creator or that there is a trinity is beyond me. It proves that you have never studied the Old Testament and you have no idea of who Yeshua really was and what He believed, and I doubt very much if you care. You only care about your pagan church and it's teachings. So Be It!! |
You and Christina have been attempting to hide yourselves within the Old Testament as safety against the Trinitarian claims for quite sometime. We who believe in the Trinity in no way would discredit Old Testament studies. And if you could point to Old Testament Scripture which denies the Trinity we would happily denounce it as false.
In fact, the Old Testament is what gives we Trinitarians the first half of the Trinitarian formula: There is but one God. We affirm with all the Old Testament Saints (NT as well) that there is but one God who's name is Yahweh.
The second half of the equation comes from the New Testament wherein the Spirit, the Father and Jesus claim this title of God.
Hence the Trinity.
YET! Since you want to hide within your Old Testament safety, perhaps you can answer the question that Christina has been posed.
That being of Isaiah 48.
Isa. 48:11 - Yahweh claims He will not give His glory to another
Isa. 48:12-14 - Yahweh claims He is the first and He is the last
Isa. 48:15 - Yahweh claims that He has spoken
Isa. 48:16 - Yahweh claims that He has been sent by the Lord God
Explain that for us please... |
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M Paul
Tadpole
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Why the heck does Elohim, a plural noun for God, always use a singular form of the verb in the Old Testament??
Example: Genesis 1:1, God created/bara Elohim
Paul |
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M Paul
Tadpole
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
(Sorry, didn't check back on this thread until now)
And?
Does it in any way devalue the quote in my signature?
_________________
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
Sorry, I overlooked this post earlier.
I think the quotes I make enhances your Jefferson quote, because they create a broder perspective. Let's look at all three together--I'll add the other two below now. And, for even greater perspective, let's look at a proclamation for prayer by George Washington just after these quotes. IMO, George Washington was a great man--and his views as the father of our country counts for so much. He was a man of balanced thought.
On March 4, 1805 President Jefferson prayed a National Prayer for Peace:
"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners."
"Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues."
"Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those whome in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of earth."
"In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."
THE CONCLUDING SENTENCES OF THOMAS JEFFERSON'S SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS.
I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.
George Washington
Proclamation of January 1, 1795
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
A PROCLAMATION.
When we review the calamities which afflict so many other nations, the present condition of the United States affords much matter of consolation and satisfaction. Our exemption hitherto from foreign war, an increasing prospect of the continuance of that exemption, the great degree of internal tranquillity we have enjoyed, the recent confirmation of that tranquillity by the suppression of an insurrection which so wantonly threatened it, the happy course of our public affairs in general, the unexampled prosperity of all classes of our citizens, are circumstances which peculiarly mark our situation with indications of the Divine beneficence toward us. In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience.
Deeply penetrated with this sentiment, I, George Washington, President of the United States, do recommend to all religious societies and denominations, and to all persons whomsoever within the United States to set apart and observe Thursday, the 19th day of February next, as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, and on that day to meet together and render their sincere and hearty thanks to the Great Ruler of Nations for the manifold and signal mercies which distinguish our lot as a nation, particularly for the possession of constitutions of government which unite and by their union establish liberty with order; for the preservation of our peace, foreign and domestic; for the seasonable control which has been given to a spirit of disorder in the suppression of the late insurrection, and generally, for the prosperous course of our affairs, public and private; and at the same time humbly and fervently to beseech the kind Author of these blessings graciously to prolong them to us; to imprint on our hearts a deep and solemn sense of our obligations to Him for them; to teach us rightly to estimate their immense value; to preserve us from the arrogance of prosperity, and from hazarding the advantages we enjoy by delusive pursuits; to dispose us to merit the continuance of His favors by not abusing them; by our gratitude for them, and by a correspondent conduct as citizens and men; to render this country more and more a safe and propitious asylum for the unfortunate of other countries; to extend among us true and useful knowledge; to diffuse and establish habits of sobriety, order, morality, and piety, and finally, to impart all the blessings we possess, or ask for ourselves, to the whole family of mankind.
In testimony whereof I have caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed to these presents, and signed the same with my hand. Done at the city of Philadelphia, the 1st day of January, 1795, and of the Independence of the United States of America the nineteenth.
G. WASHINGTON |
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James1-26
Bear Cub
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 603
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. |
If I have faith in the works of Jesus, am I not justified? If I am justified, am I not saved? Wherefore do I need to worry myself about the Trinity? Who, at the time Jesus preached, considered the Trinity; were they not justified, who believed in Jesus? I don't believe that salvation needs to be a complicated matter. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If I have faith in the works of Jesus, am I not justified? If I am justified, am I not saved? Wherefore do I need to worry myself about the Trinity? Who, at the time Jesus preached, considered the Trinity; were they not justified, who believed in Jesus? I don't believe that salvation needs to be a complicated matter. |
Ok i understand what you are saying but on the other hand
Yes we believe in christ, but to make him or anything equal to God is a sin. So when the end comes and we say "I Believed" Is God going to say but you did not obey me? Thats why it is important to me! |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Yes, How often do we say "Lord, Lord" but Judge others, condemn others, mock others, return insults, strike back, hate our enemies, tear down, devour others, think more highly of ourselves, not forgiving and keeping records of wrongs, express impatience, and unkindness.
I know it makes me look to myself and ask myself the shaming question, "Why Do I, yet call Him My Lord"?
When I'm perfect you'll be the last to know because if I boast about I'd have to know I haven't arrived just yet.
In Him
Star |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Star I can tell you are a loving caring person. Yes we do a lot of debate on this board, but as I read the posts I can't help but wonder where in the world some of these people are getting their ideas. I'm sure there are those in agreement with me, but others are not. When Jesus returns, will He be angry with me for not at least trying to set things right. I believe He will. That's all I want to do is set things straight. |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Bridget thank you for the kind word, Its really been pressing on me the thought of having all knowledge yet not the love (contained and showed in the above) and be nothing.
I'll tell you I used to hate the verse that states you CAN KNOW all mysteries and have not love and be nothing, or all knowledge and not love and be nothing as well. What is "getting it right"? Is it "our interpretaion" because we all have the scriptures in front of us. Jesus turned to the man requiring about life and Jesus directs the question back to him in what the law says then asks a very important question "How does it read TO YOU"? See? Everyone will read it differently and sometimes because we are individuals and the word as a mirror we each have various convictions especially in areas the Lord is dealing with in each one. In fact there seems to be alot of differences allowed and I sometimes think "this is where we are tested" here among each other ya know?
I might not have a perfect theology (seeing through glass darkly is not a sin) but we do have a perfect God who's love and grace and mercy seems set aside more often then lifted up, not just in word but in a living expression of these qualitys which are the true essense of Him who loves us.
I've been really convicted lately, its really my own conviction, but I always thought I needed to set others straight, I always saw where others were wrong, but I'd die in my own rightness at their expense as well as excusing myself from doing as the Lord Himself says. Do I really believe He is Lord if I exchange insults? If I like those who stood around Him trying to catch someone in every single word they say? Setting traps? Asking questions hoping for a "wrong answer" that I might jump in in my arrogance and push my right one on them? See what I'm talking about?
Didn't He say the whole world WOULD believe IF we had love for one another and you know what? Its easily discernable, we all discern it, I don't think it takes remarkable preception to see it in us. After all the world might not be able know to what "White Robes" mean in scripture but I'm sure they can smell them ya know?
I don't know... I'm kinda just thinking about these things, after all Christ Himself is "The Everything" of it all and I don't want to stand before Him after investing my life in bickering, striving and debate and realize I called Him Lord but ignored everything He asked me to do. Sometimes I can hide it from the appearances of others but not from Him or myself.
In Him
Star
Last edited by Star on Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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M Paul
Tadpole
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If I have faith in the works of Jesus, am I not justified? If I am justified, am I not saved? Wherefore do I need to worry myself about the Trinity? Who, at the time Jesus preached, considered the Trinity; were they not justified, who believed in Jesus? I don't believe that salvation needs to be a complicated matter. |
You are saved with faith in Christ, if your faith in Christ is the same Christ of the Bible. For example if you believe Christ is a puppy, and faith in the puppy's blood will save you--then you are not saved. I Corinthians chapter 15 specifies that faith in Christ must be the Christ resurrected from the dead, the new Adam--these concepts carry over from other representations in Scripture on who Christ is, which is why his blood sacrifice is an acceptable atonement of sin.
Examples --
Note I Cor.15:3 --...how Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
verse 17, if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ye are yet in your sins.
verse 22, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
However, faith in Christ as the Bible represents him actually should not be considered complicated.
Regards,
Paul |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Star, the verse you quote is from Pauls speach on love in I Corinthians which has always been one of my favorite verses, in fact I have it on my wall. I understand what you are saying here, that perhaps I don't see things as clearly as some. Can't say that I don't agree with you, except I know beyond any doubt there is no trinity. These people can claim it until the moon turns blue, but when there is nothing to back it up, it's pretty obvious the trinity is man-made doctrine totally false.
The Bible teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It says nothing of baptizing in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong show me where this is in the Bible, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. I don't think you can because it isn't there.
Why do I care so much that the church teaches the trinity. I care because this an enormous sin against God. My fear is a repeat of what happened to Sodem and Gommoraha. Perhaps you don't think this is not possible. Guess what, neither did they. |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Bridget, I haven't gotten everything neatly tied into a box either (far from it). Actually it can completely fustrate anyone seeking to do just that because God fustrates the wisdom of this world, that includes scribes (who loved scriptures)
Lets just say you are correct, and I agree, the actual word trinity does not exist. I'm thinking some use this word to include Father, Son, Holy Spirit (Three words in scriptures) Yet God is one God. Do I understand this? Or the workings of God in the deep? Or can I expound all He does? Ofcourse not (though I'd love to think I could). I can see both sides and within both sides are various perspectives as well. We are all learning and sometimes putting such a high priority on certain things can be such a stumbling block, we can forget the goal of our faith and be lured away into divisive arguments.
Bridget may I ask you why you see this as a sin? Think about it because what if they have "in part" knowledge, is this a sin? I mean God Himself keeps watch over it right?
Why let yourself be pulled into the argument itself, why not look at it as a distraction thats there to lure you away from your goal. Like its something there to distract you from the simplicity of Christ, you can let yourself "go there" if you'd like or you can reccognize "the trap" to be pulled into it see? Theres a higher and freer perspective that you can both grow and benefit from see?
More often then not when I think I'm right but am not watching myself I can put my foot in a trap every time. Because (most often) the pressing need to prove my rightness "is pride" thinking I know something, loving an argument. There I'll be with my sword to defend the Lord (I personally need a constant reminder to put it away).
Don't you notice the traps set? Like a war zone waiting for an engagement provoked by pride? Or those who set up posts waiting to pounce on their prey? I don't want to be one of them because the spirit of it sets itself up in that kind of approach to exalt itself over others desiring an audience for itself and its own purposes, even though the person uses the scriptures, its also clear who else does as well.
In Him
Star |
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