mortals and immortals

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

I am new and I have a special interest.

Why does religion try to make God a man? & why do they try to say Jesus was God? That is like Pagan Myth.
They make it sound so mystified like gods become men, then go back to being immortal.

Jesus was a man. Son of God and son of man.

Does anyone else here see that Jesus was first mortal then given immortality, glory, power and to rule over all things?

Thanks #Newbie

Van · Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:13 am Post subject:

Smoke, those of us who believe Jesus was God, do so based on several passages in the Bible such as John 1:1-14.

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6828 Location: USA

Interesting POV smoke, however, this is topic really should be in the Trinity forum.

In fact, this whole concept is discussed thoroughly in that forum as well.

Star · Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:58 am Post subject:

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus was Gods Son, and He "learned obedience".

God doesnt need to learn obedience. Jesus Christ was "made perfect" and when He was he became the author of salvation to all who obey him.

In Him

Star

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6828 Location: USA

Smoke I agree with you that many just don't see it. I cannot answer for them, all I can do is understand scripture as the holy spirit gives it to me to understand.

I can also study the scripture and the doctrine objectively and in doing so I understand how those who see the Trinity do see it. I can also understand why some refuse to see it.

Scripture does a wonderful job of demonstrating the deity of Jesus, and it does a great job of expressing his humanity. The problem is that it is often the reader who cannot accept that God can do what He deems necessary in order to fulfill His plan, to do His will.

Some also do not accept that God is whatever He is and we are incapable of fully understanding His nature. He has revealed to us parts of His nature in Scripture and some of that does not completely make sense to us.

I know that the Father is God, that the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God - scripture clearly tells me this. I also know that there is One True God - Scripture tells me this as well. What do I know then? There is One True God whom I know as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Can I understand how this is so? not fully, but I can accept on faith that it is so because the whole of scripture tells me that it is so.

As for Jesus being mortal first then immortal, it is simply a denial or refusal to accept John 1:1-17:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. For of his fullness we all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

You cannot deny that Jesus was the Word, you cannot deny that the Word was with God and the Word was God, in the beginning. You cannot deny that all things were made through Him and that without Him was nothing made.

If you cannot deny these things, then you must admit that Jesus, the Son, existed before becoming man. In this you cannot deny Jesus his divine nature, without denying scripture.

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

metothezero · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:29 am Post subject:

Smoke, please explain your interpretation of John 1:1 if you will.

You say that you understand how the Rev can read the deity of Christ and therefore the Trinity, yet I cannot see how you cannot. I want to see, please show me.

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This is the way i see it.

In the beginning was the Word-
from the beginning God has sent us scripture that he would one day send his anointed one.

and the Word was with God-
I've said it before i think the Angel michael, the head of gods army and Jesus are the same person. So if he Jesus was indeed an Angel in heaven before being a human that would explain "word was with God" Because He (Jesus) is the word.

Daniel 10,20

Smoke · Goldfish Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 61

that was good Christina. I can buy that Wink

metothezero · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:19 am Post subject:

Well I cannot. Cristina, if you do not mind, perhaps we can discuss the pre-existence of Jesus as Michael within another thread. I would like to discuss the Scriptural proof that you have to warrant such a conclusion.

Smoke, the Oneness and Trinitarian doctrines are not the same, not even basically the same, that comment gives one to conclude that you truly do not recognize what the Trinity or even the Oneness doctrines teach.

If you do not want to discuss, or study the Scriptures that is one thing...I then ask why you are here? This is Bible-discussion is it not? I personally love to study, love to discuss, yet love to debate even more. Therefore if I do get into the mode of attacking your arguments, it is my debator, my sophist coming out, please forgive it, it has a mind of its own.

Smoke, I think you are mistaken about nobody trying to understand Jesus as a man. I do believe the majority of Christianity, scholars that is, have devoted much time and effort to the search for who Jesus really was. His humanity. The problem is we cannot simply study men in general and attempt to come up with a conclusion as to the humanity of Jesus. Jesus is unique, above all others. His humanity is not simply humanity it is one enveloped with deity, that is the problem.

I personally would love to delve into the mysteries of the humanity of Christ. I think that in studying the hypostic union one can fully understand better how humans are really. I recently have been studying the impeccability of Christ, and I think in so doing, I understand better how humanity is truly. I think if we understand Christ's humanity we get a better picture of the true humanity. If we attempt to study it the other way, we come up with a God created in the image of man...understand.

Sorry for the rambling, it is early, so much coffee, so much to say!

James1-26 · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:45 am Post subject:

And so what is the Word. The Word is Salvation, because Jesus' name means God is salvation (Yah is salvation). And so Salvation was with God and Salvation was God. In the Greek they speak of the "Word" being the Divine Expression. They don't mention a person.

metothezero · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 am Post subject:

And yet John 1:14-15 does speak of the WORD being a person, particularly the person of Jesus Christ...