|
|
| Author |
Message |
christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:18 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| metothezero wrote: | | Well I cannot. Cristina, if you do not mind, perhaps we can discuss the pre-existence of Jesus as Michael within another thread. I would like to discuss the Scriptural proof that you have to warrant such a conclusion. |
I dont understand are you telling me to discuss it or not?
_________________
Christina |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
metothezero I've tried to answer John 1 for you so now can you do the same for ( John 8,14-18 ) but this time explain how can God and Jesus can be 1
_________________
Christina |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smoke
Goldfish
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I dont think he was Michael, but an angelman or manangel makes more sense than a mangod.
Jesus was a man. God is not a man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robbo
Sea Monkey
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 10
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| christina wrote: |
I've said it before i think the Angel michael, the head of gods army and Jesus are the same person. So if he Jesus was indeed an Angel in heaven before being a human that would explain "word was with God" Because He (Jesus) is the word.
|
| Hebrews 1:5-14 wrote: |
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.” But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.” To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”? Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Smoke, I most definately agree with you. Jesus was mortal and God's son. There is nothing in the NT that indicated Jesus was anything more. John 1 was a hymn and was edited to agree with the teachings of the day. The word 'he' was inserted and replaced the word 'it' in the English version. The discussion of Jesus and whether or not He is God is much different then talking about a 3 in one God called the trinity.
Rev, since we have argued so much on this board I would be interested in knowing what denomination you are from and why, if you are a Rev haven't you looked into the early church and what they believe. It is most interesting and has kept my interest for 20 years now. Try it. Leave what the church has taught you behind for a little time and see what the early teachings were. I think you will be very surprised.
Anyway, I get so tired of arguing about something you don't seem to be able to grasp, because your eyes are blinded by the teachings of the church. God help you to see and understand! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smoke
Goldfish
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bridget wrote: | | Smoke, I most definately agree with you. Jesus was mortal and God's son. There is nothing in the NT that indicated Jesus was anything more. John 1 was a hymn and was edited to agree with the teachings of the day. The word 'he' was inserted and replaced the word 'it' in the English version. The discussion of Jesus and whether or not He is God is much different then talking about a 3 in one God called the trinity. |
Yes I know. I know the catholics messed with the scriptures to a degree and they will have to answer. But God did not allow them to change it enough to alter the true meaning.
Jesus was a mortal man. son of man after the flesh and Son of God after the spirit. God cannot be son of man. God cannot be a man.
You are lucky and blessed Bridget to see both the Jewish and Christian faith. You are also smart for researching the bible making history. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
It makes me wonder sometimes...
Am I the only one who trusts God enough to believe that His Holy Inspired Word would be under His protection and that the scriptures we have today are the scriptures He intended for us to have? I have faith that this is so, and I find no reason to look for alleged things in history which would give me reason to doubt the veracity of the bible in front of me.
Of course that also means I have to believe what that bible says despite my personal likes or dislikes.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smoke
Goldfish
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | It makes me wonder sometimes...
Am I the only one who trusts God enough to believe that His Holy Inspired Word would be under His protection and that the scriptures we have today are the scriptures He intended for us to have? I have faith that this is so, and I find no reason to look for alleged things in history which would give me reason to doubt the veracity of the bible in front of me.
Of course that also means I have to believe what that bible says despite my personal likes or dislikes. |
I know the bible is under his protection and infalable. He gave a commandment not to add or take away a word. There must have been a need for that commandment, because just like the other commandments they have all been broken.
However, one day at the library is all it takes for historical proof that Rome (catholic church) did in fact alter words and scriptures.
I wont get into any of that, you can search it for yourself.
You can also sense where the changes were made when you do not find a second witness to what was supposed to have been said or done. And it also odd, that where there is no second witness, the typical pagan roman myth is present.
You can start with your trinity baptism in Matt 28:19. There is no 2nd witness or nowhere in the bible did anyone EVER use those titles all in the same breath for anything. Jesus himself never even spoke that way.
there is only one name (authority) for all 3 titles.
Jesus and the apostles always used the name of Jesus for everything.
TITLES by themselves have no authority.
There are at least six accounts of Historians who confess the verse was altered. Even Tertullian himself confessed that they changed Gods Word.
At the same time, they did not change the true meaning. BECAUSE GOD WOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO GO THAT FAR!
Rome did in fact keep the book of acts & revelations out the bible for 100 years after the bible was esablished. The two purest books were later added & Rome did not get the chance to touch and Acts and Revelations. 100 years, just long enough for them to establish a pagan religion full of lies to force on the world.
Want more? you know the telephone game we used to play where you whisper a word in someones ear and by the end of the line of telling the tale you have something totally different than what was said.
In these last days, it is impossible to have a topic study with 20 different versions of the bible floating around because they continue to alter and change Gods Word.
So the written Word has in fact been altered against Gods commandment many many times.
But His Word endureth forever!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Your entire post makes no sense. You start it by proclaiming the infalibility of scripture. You end it with the exclaimation that His Word endureth forever, and in the middle of that sandwich is a lengthy explanation as to why we should disregard most of His Word, question it, mistrust it, and pick and choose what we want to beleive out of it.
Absolutely senseless. You can either accept scripture as His Word, on faith. Or you can reject it. But you cannot pick and choose the parts you like and the parts you don't and which you want to believe - it is an all or nothing deal.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Smoke,
Heres a thought, but I'm not to sure if this can mean the literal pen or a spiritual pen because one can speak the truth by the Spirit and become a living epistle not penned with ink but the Spirit of the living God. One can speak falsely I suppose and believe a lie, it could be literal? Either way God give us understanding.
How can you say, "We are wise,
since we have Yahweh's Law?"
Look how it has been falsified
by the lying pens of the scribes!
The wise are put to shame,
alarmed, caught out
because they rejected Yahweh's word.
What price their wisdom now?
In Him
Star |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smoke
Goldfish
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I believe all of it. Believing it and accepting all of it has nothing to do with it being corrupted by men.
Star, I see what you are saying about the scribes and pen.
2Cr 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What I meant by that is that Christ Himself has become unto us the Wisdom and power of God that we need not rest or rely on the wisdom of men because the world and its wisdom no matter how correct the original documents are did not know Christ when He came anyway.
So our trust is in Christ who is to us The Truth, the Wisdom of God.
It keeps it pretty simple for us, the fun thing for me to do is find those precious testimonies of the Lord in the scriptures where God hid Him in His foreknowledge.
In Him
Star |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Smoke
Goldfish
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Star wrote: | What I meant by that is that Christ Himself has become unto us the Wisdom and power of God that we need not rest or rely on the wisdom of men because the world and its wisdom no matter how correct the original documents are did not know Christ when He came anyway.
So our trust is in Christ who is to us The Truth, the Wisdom of God.
It keeps it pretty simple for us, the fun thing for me to do is find those precious testimonies of the Lord in the scriptures where God hid Him in His foreknowledge.
In Him
Star |
Exactly. Once the Word is in your heart, it does not matter how many religions and how many times they change it, the truth of God will always prevail and Jesus wont let us fall into the traps.
The trinity religion was made up before we ever got the written Word, religions are the problem, not the Bible.
I just made up this saying below-
but you dont have to believe it.
You can always find the truth hiding in a lie.
You will never find a lie in the truth.
If it is ok with you all, can we get back to the studying the man Christ Jesus? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Smoke says,
If it is ok with you all, can we get back to the studying the man Christ Jesus?
Star replies
Sure, but I have one question... after the flesh or the Spirit?   |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Star, Spiritual. As all things are Spiritual...
Cristina, I fail to see where you have explained your understanding of John 1. Perhaps it be in the idea that you believe Jesus to be Michael and therefore that is how Jesus existed before as the Word? If this be so I have gathered that from other threads, not this one. Even so, please do it once more for a thickheaded nincumpoop such as myself.
Also, what exactly would you like me to answer concerning John 8? I see Jesus saying that the Father and Himself judge together. Taht His judgement is true. That He testifies of Himself, and that the Father testifies of Him as well. I see Him speaking of their judgements according to the flesh and how His judgements are not according to the flesh, and therefore are true. What else can I clarify for you?
You have also asked me to explain how Jesus and God can be one, and I will do so as soon as I am through explaining how God can be God.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
