The Promises of Perfection: Are they for real?

Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

When I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior, the pastor said I was saved. But years later, and after much sorrow and heartache, I’m essentially the same person. What’s up with that? This one guy, a street preacher, asked me if I am saved, and I said, yes. Then he asked, Do you read the Bible, so I lied and said, yes. That bothered me. It’s one thing to tell a lie, but to lie about reading the Bible… now, that’s really sad.

It made me start reading the Bible. After all those years, I finally started reading the Bible. Some Christian, eh? But now I’m not so sure it was a good thing. That might sound bad, but it’s true. Either the Bible is full of false hope and promises or I’m just not getting it. My biggest beef is the idea that Christians can’t sin, that if I do this and that the Holy Spirit helps me not to sin. Yeah right! I’ve never met anyone like that.

Maybe you guys can help me out here. I hope so, and I hope this place isn’t like most others, where everyone has their own opinion, and the help line turns into a huge, ugly argument, which makes me think Christianity isn’t working for anyone. At any rate, what do these Bible texts mean? Do they mean what they say, or do they have some hidden meaning that isn’t plain to see? Because if they mean what they say… well, it just isn’t true. Reality isn’t a fantasy. No one is perfect. I’ve never met a church member who doesn’t get upset or lose his/her temper any more.

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mat 5)

Who is even half as perfect as God?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6)

Who is dead to sin and is no longer serving sin?

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Gal 5)

Who has stopped fulfilling the lusts of the flesh?

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5)

Who is without old things and everything is new?

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. (1 Peter 2)

Who is free of malice, guile, hypocrisy, envy and evil speaking?

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. (1 Peter 4)

Who has ceased from sin?

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren F3 nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1)

Who is purged from their old sins and doesn’t fall any more?

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born F2 of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3)

Who doesn’t sin any more?

Star · Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm Post subject:

I will take the time to help you ok?

Think on this before I share with you.

ANYTHING THAT IS NOT ((((OF FAITH))) IS SIN

You are NOT changed by beholding THE LAW. The LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT

YOU are in AN EXCELLENT PLACE right now and Paul showed this too.

You are saying as He did, "WHO SHALL SAVE ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH"???!!!

HERES where YOU have AN HONEST AND GOOD HEART and THIS IN YOU is FERTILE SOIL that will BRING FORTH MUCH FRUIT (SPIRITUAL FRUIT) your WALKING TO YOUR DESTINATION TRUTHFULLY IN YOURSELF, its COMMENDABLE that you came forward because its not the proud who think they are justified by the Law God looks to BUT the HUMBLE in heart as seen IN YOU.

To be MADE PERFECT is to be BROUGHT TO COMPLETION IN CHRIST who is both the AUTHOR and FINISHER of YOUR FAITH, you now found out the LAW DOESN'T WORK=YOU KNOW THIS NOW

Ready for a New way... Try THE DOOR (CHRIST) He SENDS FAITH INTO YOUR HEART (as a GIFT) and FAITH WORKETH LOVE and HIS LOVE SHALL BE MADE PERFECT IN YOU. ITS GOD WHO WILLS AND WORKS IN YOU TO DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. NOT YOU.

What you just found was the same thing Paul showed concerning Himself. What HE DESIRED TO DO (GOOD) HE COULD NOT (((BUT))) The EVIL HE WOULD NOT (((THAT))) HE DID!!!

So what he said was, THEN IN MY INNER MAN I DELIGHT IN GODS LAW (I AGREE WITH IT!!) BUT HE WAS UNABLE TO CARRY IT OUT.

Was it PAUL??? NO!!!!!! PAUL SAID THEN IT IS NO LONGER (((ME))) PAUL DOING IT ((((BUT SIN IN ME))).

WHAT A REVELATION!!! Can YOU see your discovery is PAULS OWN DISCOVERY???

The POWER OF SIN is IN THE LAW.

You were alive APART from the LAW but under it SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND YOU DIED.

Paul was saying THE LAW DOES NOT WORK. Its a WAY that SEEMS RIGHT but it puts you to death through what is good.
NOW BY FAITH you can GET UP AND TAKE THY MATT and WALK (By FAITH ONLY) Gods grace is NOT WITHOUT EFFECT but the power of Gods Grace is cut of and severed by trusting in The Law.

He will justify you by FAITH ALONE. As Abraham believed God and it was CREDITED TO HIM=AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

Can you HEAR THIS??

In Him

Star

Van

Climbing Higher, thanks for your very interesting post. First, I am sorry to tell you not everybody who says or thinks they are Christians, are in fact born again believers. Matthew 7:13 provides information that some folks who "served the Lord, but practiced Lawlessness" were never saved. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus teaches that some among us are not really Christians. The problem of course is in discerning who are the tares and who are the wheat.

So when you ask a very good question like the one you asked and so called Christians, including myself, provide very different answers and argue with each other, the process does not provide very much reassurance that their are any "real born again Christians".

As far as understanding the Bible, it means what the author intended to say, not what we may misconstrue because we do not understand it.

In order to progress in the Christian walk, the Bible teaches three key behaviors. (1) Prayerful study of God's word on a daily basis, not every week on Sunday. Paul says for us to set our minds on spiritual things and the way to do that is through prayer and bible study. (2) Establish a relationship with fellow Christians, because they can teach you by word and example, they can disciple you (making disciples of all nations is a command of Christ) and if you ask them, they can meet regularly with you and discuss your walk with the Lord. In the assembly of believers we serve other believers and we are served by other believers. Without that two way fellowship, you walk with the Lord will stagnate. (3) Prayer, daily prayer for a prolonged period of time where you consider your actions and see if they seem pleasing to the Lord and if not, you consider altered behavior to address the perceived errors in your walk with the Lord. Every day you will wake up knowing that you did not do all that was possible to please God, but also knowing that your faith is strong and your heart is willing. Be perfect is our daily goal, we are to strive to be perfect and leave no room for fleshly behavior.

I do not know where you got the idea that Christians do not sin? Christians sin because we are in this tent of flesh. But if our heart's desire is to serve Christ, we are no longer serving sin, even though we sin. During our walk with Christ we are being conformed to the image of Christ, we do not start out perfect as Christ was perfect, but "in Christ" because He is perfect, we are both being perfected and at the same time we are perfect because our imperfections are covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh does not mean we never eat, never sleep, never think about sinful sex, it means we are striving to go the other way, not trying to do whatever the flesh desires. If we were, then our effort would be to "fulfill" the lusts of the flesh.

As long as we are in this tent of flesh, we will struggle with fleshly desires, but once we are resurrected in glorified bodies, that struggle ends.

To lay aside vices such as malice means we are setting our minds on virture, excellence, kindness, godliness, love, etc. We let go of the old and reach for the new. We are to be diligent in our efforts to supply these virtures and have them increasing during our life in the Lord.

To cease from sin means to strive toward spiritual goals rather than sinful goals. It does not mean we do not sin. Anyone who says he does not sin is a liar. See 1 John 1:8-10. But look at 1 John 2:1, the idea is to try and not sin, and when we fall into sin, we have an advocate in Christ so we should keep on striving and not worry as you are doing over past sins.

Now lets turn to 1 John 3:5. What John is saying is that even though we commit sins, because we are in Jesus, they are not counted as sins, so in effect there is no sin.

But, do not think you can practice sin, in other words seek after worldly things rather than after spiritual things, because that is the practice of sin and no one truely saved practices sin, we seek after Christ instead.

God bless you as you consider anew, God's revealing word.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

BRAVO VAN!

I 100% agree with everything you said. Climbing Higher, Van has told you true, please consider his words.

JP

BTW, welcome to the board! I am JP one of your moderators, if you need anything please ask. You can email me or PM me (look at the top of the fourms page to the icon "You have no new messages", click on it and go from there).

Well met, my friend.
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Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

Van and JP, thank you for sharing your insights. I guess being less sinful, and falling less often, is better than nothing. But is there no hope, before the resurrection or the return of Christ, that the promises I posted above can apply today, right now? Or, in spite of the grace of God, am I destined to live a life of sinning and repenting? Those promises seem to say that, in Christ, I am supposed to be dead to sin and awake to righteousness.

The reason I am so concerned about it is because I am sick and tired of making a fool out of myself and, though admittedly it is not my highest concern right now (unfortunately), misrepesenting Christ and the Church. I love my family, and I hate nothing more than blowing it around them, especially my wife and children. If the promises of God cannot help me here and now, if they only apply, in the ultimate sense, to some future time after Jesus comes again, then what good are they today? Why did God express it the way He did? It's very misleading. Truthfully, being short tempered half as often is no solace to my darling kids, nor to me.

Star, I had a hard time reading your post. It was cluttered and confusing for me. But thank you for trying to help.

Star · Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:31 pm Post subject:

Thats ok ClimbingHigher Very Happy

No offense taken hon, I've been told that before MANY OF TIMES (Everyone knows I might not be an easy read here) but Simply put, its Simply in Him. He works within you.

I will learn simplicity in my replies one of these days Laughing

In Him

Star

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

Frustrated and disheartened? I feel your pain.

Are the promises for us in this life we are living, or only for the future in eternity with God?

Look at those promises again, and look at the situation we are in. The promises are for us, for now, yet we have an insurmountable hill to climb to achieve that perfection.

We are admonished to be Christ-like, what an impossible goal that seems! Horror of horrors, are we supposed to change our lives in order to be perfect? Yes and no. We are imperfect, we are incapable of achieving that Christ-like perfection of our own effort.

God has given us promises and He has given us the means to realize those promises - Christ's salvation for our sins, and the Holy Spirit's power to mold us into Christ-like beings.

In Romans Paul bemoans "why do I do what I hate!?"

Paul struggled with sin, the disciples, the prophets, the apostles, everyone struggles, and yet we see the power of God reflected in their lives and the changes in their lives. We see people today who have radically changed through the power of the holy spirit. Are they perfect yet? No, can they be in this life? Probably not, because they are trapped in this world of imperfect flesh.

Re-read what Van wrote, about serving sin vs. sinning and think about the focus of your life, think about those times when you blow up at your kids, or get angry on the road, or when you engage in a sinful activity. Where is the focus then? Is it on God?

We are clay, God is the potter, we cannot mold ourselves into what He wants, only He can do that. We can certainly throw the wheel off balance while He is molding us, but when we allow Him to work we get back on balance and continue to be shaped into the vessel He has planned.

Chin up, deep breath.... focus on God.
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Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

JP, please forgive me for saying so, because I really do appreciate the time and effort you have taken to minister to me, but the idea that God cannot empower me to consistently overcome the temptation to indulge my sinful predispositions, well, quite frankly, it leaves me feeling hopeless, and even somewhat angry with God.

The reason it makes me upset with God is because His promises seem to say He will not allow me to be tempted above His ability to empower me to resist unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13. And not only that, He also promised that Jesus would make my weaknesses stronger than the assaults of Satan’s temptations, that His grace is more than sufficient to make up the difference; so that, in Christ, I am more than a conqueror, and that the Devil, though he roars like a lion, must flee like a whelp. 2 Cor 12:9 and Rom 8:3 and 1 Peter 5:8 and James 4:7.

But, if what you’re saying is true, then I have no legitimate reason to think or hope God can do this for me now. If it is so, then why doesn’t God just say so, why get my hopes up with false promises, or promises that do not apply now? Do see what I mean? Oh sure, I can read the Bible, and memorize the passages that pretend to promise unbroken, uninterrupted victory, here and now, but what good is it if in reality they don’t mean what they say?

I guess I’m willing to live a life of failure, a life of sinning and repenting, if that’s all I can really, truly hope for, but I must admit, it’s not what I expected from God. I was doing pretty good without Him, before I became a Christian. I was hoping His promises were real, something that I could sink my teeth into and improve my situation, to make my life better. But sinning half as often, well, to be honest, just wasn’t what I was looking for when I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. It only took one minor sin, eating the forbidden fruit, to start a landslide of misery and unrest, so even if God can help me overcome every unChristlike habit, save one, then I’m really no better off than Adam. Do you know what I mean? If Christianity isn't the answer, is there something better, something that works like it's supposed to?

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Perfection can only be had ... during this life in the rare instant when we are truly bowed before God, in complete humble submission during repentance as the blood of Christ, the only begotten of God, is applied over our sins, to cover them from the view of the Father, i.e., Yaweh, Jehovah, Tsid Kaneaou, Macadesh, Rihoh, Jireh, etc., who is perfect and is the only one who can make us perfect. Note: He is the only person we need to be concerned about being perfect in front of. To want or try to be perfect before other men and women and children is like saying," I am holy, behold my perfection," which is a gross error.

Other people need to see the perfection of Christ, who is in the born again obedient believer, so that they know who is the actual perfect one, and of course that is Christ. Only then do they know who to follow, Christ.

When the Father looks for our sins, and He does and will again, the only thing that we want Him to see is the HOLY BLOOD of Christ covering them. If He looks and sees anything besides the blood of the covenant, we don't stand a chance with God. The blood of Christ makes us appear holy, not that we are holy.

thunder
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Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Congratulation my friend ... your statement," I really do want to be Christlike, because I really do hate sinning and repenting for the same stupid mistakes," ( over and over again I might add, which is the same for all people ) is the essence of a true repentance.

Some think they can get away with sin by asking for forgiveness after commiting acts of sin, and most of them could make the same request before they commit the acts because they have already made up their mind, if not made plans to commit sin knowing they will ask for forgiveness again, and again, and again, thinking they are receiving the forgiveness they act like they are making, when they are not, they are acting, faking it.

A true repentance is when you really don't want to ever commit a sin again. Only then is it honored by God as an actual repentance and treated as such. ( Hebrews 4:12, God cannot be deceived ) We only deceive our self.

The closer that you get to Christ, the closer you are to the only person who can actually help you with the concern of commiting sin. The apostles and immediate followers of Christ, who walked with Him every day during His earthly ministry, or as often as they could, were close enough to touch the hem of His garment and that is what we must seek, to get that close to Him, and stay there.

The only problem with that is, that we must wake up in the morning and go to school, go to work, meet with friends and family who are full of mischief, love to sin and desire that we go there with them. It is a difficult thing to master, walking with Christ. It requires us to re-think whom we will hang out with. Where we will go and what we will do / say when sin is offered to us on a platter. All the sin we want in fact, and more even than we can stay awake to absorb / commit is offered to us.

' This I say, from now on and I am certain of it in my testimony to the Lord, do not walk as others do, who love to sin, who think very highly of them self in the vanity of their mind, they have lost out with God and eternal life.' Ephesians 4:17, 18

One more thing," perfect love throws out fear," so I would urge you to throw caution to the wind and follow Christ directly into the Kingdom of God, fearlessly in love with Him! I promise that He will love you more than you can love Him, no matter how hard you try, and try hard in deed, my friend. You will never regret it, ever!

He is the friend of all who love Him.

thunder
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Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

But when can I expect God to fulfill His promises to me? When will the following promise apply to me?

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor 5:17.

According to this promise, if I am abiding in Christ, I am a new man, that is, nothing at all like the old man. The way this promise is worded it leads me to believe it's talking about a done deal, not an ongoing process. If this is true, then am I also supposed to believe that being dead to sin and awake to righteousness means that new born babes in Christ are born again perfect and then, so long as they are abiding in Christ, that they become perfect, that is, they mature in the fruits of the Spirit, from grace to grace, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory?

This question has been bothering me for a long time. I want to believe that God's promises apply now, rather than after years of sinning less and less, rather than gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character. God is a creationist, and the thought of applying the evolution model to His promises, well, it just doesn't seem appropriate. If Jesus can help us resist even one temptation, unto the honor and glory of God, then it stands to reason He can empower us to resist every temptation. After all, didn't Jesus promise He wouldn't allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist?

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations." 2 Peter 2:9.

In light of these promises, is there any reason why I cannot take God at His word? During the heat of temptation, do I have the right to expect God to bring me off more than victorious? Or, is failure inevitable?

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

In the old ... man there are flaws long gone that you may have forgotten existed. Or perhaps you never knew they existed and since they are gone, you don't miss them. There are likely other people that you know, who knew you before Christ, who would recognise the character flaw that is no longer present.

I know that God sees the inward man, our spirit condition, and begins the work from inside out while we keep looking at the outside.

Everyone, even the prophet of God, would have chosen Davids brother over David. In fact, they would have NEVER chosen David. He was a runt and runts don't become kings, right? Wrong!

David became one of the most feared men in battle and the most beloved for his sensetivity. A great, but imperfect king.

We are all flawed friend. I urge you to allow the potter to shape the clay into His image of the real you. He knows what He wants you to be. It may take years to get there, but the potter is working. Perhaps you don't know what God sees in you, or what He desires for you to be, but He is the potter, after all.

When Job saw his error, he said." I repent in dust and ashes."

You may not have to go through that much pain and suffering, then again, maybe you do.

You choose.

thunder
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

One question Climb,

How would you have God fulfill those promises? Would you have Him yank control of your thoughts, desires, actions, reactions, away from you? Cause you to be a mere puppet?

Obviously God doesn't work that way. He promises us perfection and victory over sin, yet He has also given us free will and the choice between doing what He says to do and doing what we want to do. Regeneration, redemption, salvation, those things do not negate free will, they do not simply give God complete control of us to move us about as He wills.

I cannot speak for you, but as for myself, when I sin, when I yell at my kids or get mad at someone or something and lash out, when I engage in an activity which I know is sinful, it is abundantly clear to me then and after that I was in the driver's seat, that I had snatched back control of my life to behave in a manner which I chose - not God.

It is also clear to me that in those instances when the opportunity arises, or temptation confronts me and I focus on God, His Word, and ask Him for His help - that I behave in a manner of a disciple of Christ.

Why do I do that which I hate? Simply because being christ-like is a day by day, moment by moment endeavor, and when I pull my focus from Him, I fall.

You want God to fulfill His promises in your life? Then you need to allow Him to do so by giving Him the steering wheel, constantly, and doing those things scripture shows you that you must do - pray, study, and rely on Him.
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thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

I am glad ... that you said that Rev ... because now I feel more like an earth placed child of God too. This life of being a christian is very, very challenging indeed.

I have studied under a scribe of God for several years and his thoughts are far deeper than my own. He has actually lived the life that the rest of us think that we want to live.

In the end though, all born again believers will meet at the same place and give our thanks to God in Christ.

I will share a fragment of this scribe and let you in on his mind set of the christian experience.

Concerning the power of the cross of Christ the affect His cross ( passion ) should ( does ) have upon us, whether we know it or not:

" How marvelous is the cross! It is the foundation for every thing spiritual
( in existense ). The purpose and end of its work is to unite the believers spirit with the Spirit of the resurrected Christ so that together they become one spirit. The cross must penetrate deeply to rid our sinful and soulish ways within us so that we can join and become one with the resurrected life of Christ.

A believers spirit, together with all which is natural and transient within us, must pass thru death, so that our spirit may become purified and then united to become one spirit with the Lord Jesus in the freshness and purity of resurrected life. The outcome will be, to serve the Lord in " newness of spirit." ( Romans 7:6 Darby )

When this has fully happened our natural self, our soulish activities have no more place within our life, our work and we have transferred our life to the life of Christ. From that time on, every aspect of our life is in service to God in purpose, work and life of the Lord Jesus. Then, the Spirit life leaves His print on everything that we do, everything we say, everywhere we go, everyone we meet and everything becomes a representation of Him on this world and the world that we cannot see with human eyes.

Then, we have become the property of Christ and we are living in a true ascention life with Christ, on earth. We are joined with Christ in the throne of God. Then, we are in the world but not of the world. The enthroned life is manifest upon this earthly place thru each of us in Christ. The Head and the body share the same life.

With the union intact, He can and does pour forth upon this world the power of His life through us and our faith. In this way He pours the living water of His Holy Spirit through us and it enters this world, transmitting life in the abundance of His will. The Lord is not just a Spirit. He is a life giving Spirit as well. In Him we live the limitless life of Christ in the same triumphant way that He conquered sin. In Him we live the victorious life of Christ, together every day.

In this way He shares with us the knowledge of His will and the mind of Christ. Together we build and expand the new creation, here a little and there a little, but not all at once. Together we become structurally sound instruments of God in this world and the next. Every day we learn more and become more in Christ so that our life begins to look more and more like His life and nature and vitality.

By experiencing His death, His burial, His resurrection and His ascention, we will begin to become used to the heavenly places where Christ resides, our home with Him forever. During the daily walk with God, together with Him in us, we trodden down all that is earthly underfooot and we get a taste of what Adam experienced before he fell.

So long as we re-establish the relationship with Him daily, hourly, we will rise above any earthly opstacle, disturbance or setback. From the moment we become born again, our old life begins to fall away, replaced by the new, but we have to pursue it. It doesn't happen like magic, without our effort. We have to purpose for the life of Christ to become our life. His word becomes our word. His Spirit becomes our spirit. His ways, ours.

When we pursue it for the purpose having Him change us to what He desires for us to be, our life on earth is no longer swayed by raw emotion. We become tempered by the power of God to see this life for what it is, a temporary dwelling place that we affect, pass thru, then rise up to be with the Lord in body, mind, heart, spirit and soul, forever."

See what I mean, and you thought being a christian is going to be easy. We have to be willing to sacrifice all that we thought we were supposed to be for becoming what He chooses for us to be.

He is the potter, after all. Amen

thunder
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