prove it

brendan · Big Guppy Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 47

show me proof that there is a trinity,and i'll prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt that indeed there is not.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

There is no triunne Godhead ... but I would like to hear ( read ) your position on proving, and I mean really proving it and not just saying that you believe, that the scripture says so then recite one scripture after another or pointing the sky and saying that the universe is no accident.

I am a believer and can recite every scriptuaral text but have no actual effective proof of God, much less proving that He is one and not a trinity.

I am studying a book called," the footsteps of God."

The plot thickens as the writer introduces God and His creation but, the written document is only viable when the reader is a believer in God and His word.

Please share, Brendan

thunder
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Submit to God in Christ

metothezero · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:54 pm Post subject:

What an extremely odd and confused statement you have made Brendon. You want us, as Trinitarians, to show you proof that there is a Trinity, so that you can show us proof that there is not.

Yet proof is something that testifies to the validity and truthfullness of the thing in which it is proving. Therefore, if I had proof that there was a Trinity, I would have something that supports the truthfullness and validity of the existence of this Triune God.

Likewise, if you had proof that there was no Trinity, you would have something that supports the truthfullness and validity that there is not a Triune God.

But you cannot say that both of these exist. I cannot have 'proof' that there is a Triune God, while you have 'proof' that there is not. One of our 'proofs' would have to be mere reasons why we believe or disbelieve in the Trinity, rather then actual proofs to validate our believes.

Therefore, if I were to actually show you undeniable proofs that the Trinity is true, whatever you would fabricate afterward would simply be false proofs and reasons why you do not believe it. Likewise if you could actually give me proofs of why there is no Trinity, my proofs would be nothing but reasons why I believe it.

So what do you want, you want my proofs so you can give me your reasons for disbelief? Because that is all that can be offered here... Smile

_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

Van · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:48 am Post subject:

The trinity doctrine is necessary to harmonize several scriptures. First, there is only one true God, all other gods are false gods. Therefore if Jesus is God, then either He is a false god, or He is part, a manifestation or person of the one true God. You cannot say there are two true Gods, because scripture cannot be broken, and you cannot say Jesus is not God because John 1:1 says Jesus is God. Therefore the necessity of the one God in two persons - Father and Son. Next, rather than nullifying the personhood of the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer as our Helper, the trinity allows for the Holy Spirit to be another part of the trune God Yahweh. Scripture reveals God in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each is shown to display emotion, will and intellect, the qualities of personhood.

You ask how can two persons communicate with each other yet not be two seperate persons? This communication always occurs across the boundry between the physical universe - and the realm of the spiritual. For example at the baptism of Christ, where the Holy Spirit came down and rested on Jesus like a dove, the manifestation was visible to John the Baptist. And when the Father in the spiritual realm said, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased" this was audible to others. So the separate persons or manifestations facilitate communication between physical man and our spiritual creator. They were necessary to reveal God to us.

If you can reconcile two biblical truths, there is only one true God, Yahweh, and Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are truely God, without the doctrine of the trinity, have at it. I am all ears.

brendan · Big Guppy Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 47

twice ive went into detail and twice i took to long to repond within the time alloted so what i wrote was erased.thats cool i'll keep it short.
I john 5:7-8,for there are three that bear record [in heaven,the father , the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one.And ther are three that bear witness in earth].the braketed words were added by editors to the latin vulgate translation about the early 4th cent.they do not appear in of the older translations .they were added during the heat of the controversey between rome and DR.Arius and gods people. i have a king james version and it is added but most other translations will either not add it or will footnote that it was an unauthorized insertion, and is not found in any greek text. learn more about this by looking into the council of nicene a.d. 325. and in the preface of my interlinear bible it's strongly stated that this was an unauthorized insertion ,and is not found in any of the originnal greek text. this doctreine totally does away with christs gospel and is the foundation of trinitarians who will admit that it is a mystery and i ronically admit that it is a false insertion as well.IT is true that satan has managed to decieve the whole world in gen. and how clever he does this. god bless

Van · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:04 am Post subject:

Brendan, I see an attack on trinitarian views, a strawman argument for no one referenced that passage in the KJV of 1 John to demonstrate trinity doctrine in this thread. Again, we are all familiar with most if not all the arguments used to say the trinity is a false doctrine. What I would like to see is an alternative view. Mojo says we have two Gods, and those passages that say we have only one baffle her. Others say Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit does not possess the characteristics of personhood. Do you have another view, one that has not be shown to be inconsistent with the straightforward reading of scripture? Lets here it.

Van · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:11 am Post subject:

Brendan, a trick I use to avoid having my long posts - long in time because I study as I prepare them, is to highlight my completed text (control A on my machine) and then I click on Edit, then copy. I then submit and if it goes to electron heaven, I relog in and open a reply box and right click in the box and paste in my text again. I hit submit and enter my post.

brendan · Big Guppy Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 47

thank you i'll have to remember that.
i make no attack but without this doctrine to support the trinity there is no leg to stand on. and the proof is a part of history,emporor canstantine and the coucil of nicene accepted this doctrine as wellas the quartodeciman controversy which in a.d 325 was threatening world peace,constantine ,then civil ruler,made it law.but could not make it truth.
before that no such thing ever existed.
As far as the god head ,the bible only mentions two,god the father and jesus the son(who also represents god the father in the old testament,for no man has looked upon god and lived,that is where jesus comes in as a representator of god).the holy spirit is none other than the spiritual extension of god himself also known as the finger of god, the comforter among a few. We as christian need that spirit to be come new creatures ,reborn so as to become members of god's family.
now the trinity doctrine is an undeniable fact , and its history is well documented.Without this doctrine for support then you'll find a new meaning of the the bible ,gospel the way it was intended by christ and his followers to be. i have to go now im a truck driver so im gone most of the week god bless for now

metothezero · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:14 pm Post subject:

As Van has so eloquently stated, no supporter of the Trinity has used the passage in 1 John as proof of the doctrine. There are far too many other passages which speak monumentally of the deity of Jesus and of the Spirit. If you can prove, which you can, that 1 John 5:7 is not part of the Scriptures, you have not disproven the only leg Trinitarians have to stand on, you have merely taken away a verse which alot of Trinitarians do not even use.

Explain Titus 2:13, there is a verse which is part of the Scriptures, Jesus is specifically called the 'Great God and Savior of us'. We likewise have passages as you well know of the Father being referred to as God. Therefore, to be true to Scriptures we either have to accept the Trinity, or no longer call ourselves monotheistic. And believe in two Gods as our friend does. But you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say you believe Scripture, and you believe there to be one God, and yet also believe the Trinity to be a false doctrine.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

Van · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:06 am Post subject:

Thanks Metothezero and Revjp, both of your posts are on the money.

vanhoek68

1 Corinthians
15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25
For he(Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
15:27
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. .

Christ is subject to God . God is getting everything back from Jesus when all is said and done. God is greater than his Christ.

Van · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:47 am Post subject:

Welcome Vanhoek68,

My starting assumption is that you are an antitrinitarian because the trinity doctrine say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God and your point is that the Father is "greater" than the Son.

I am not trying to be clever, but do you know the verse where Jesus teaches who is greatest in the Kingdom of God?

Trinitarians base the equality doctrine upon Philippians 2:6.

The roles of the persons of the trinity differ, but just because my wife follows my spiritual lead, according to scripture, does not mean I am greater than my wife.

Final thought, God has revealed Himself to us through scripture, but our understanding of scripture might be flawed so we must study it carefully and use every passage bearing upon the nature of God in arriving at our understanding of God.

MoJo · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:38 am Post subject:

Welcome to the board vanhoek 68 Very Happy

My name is MoJo and I am one of the moderators. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask one of us. Enjoy your stay. Be sure to read the board rules at the top of the threads. Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

vanhoek68 · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject: Antitrinitarian

I am not antitrinitarion or pro-oneness I am interested in truth.
In fact a oneness person would have just as much of a hard time explaining 1 Cor 15 as a trinitarian.
Consider this scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

And this:
Hebrews 1
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And this:
John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

When studying the Word I feel you should put aside your denominational beliefs and find the truth. It's not about proving yourself right; it's finding more about who God is so we can serve Him more completely.