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Tiger75
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 417
Location: Leicester, England
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 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: Son of God |
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I have often heard it argued that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God. Yet we read:
| Quote: | Jesus Faces the Sanhedrin (Luke 22:66-71)
66 As soon as it was day, the elders of the people, both chief priests and scribes, came together and led Him into their council, saying,
67 "If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will by no means believe.
68 And if I also ask you, you will by no means answer Me or let Me go.
69 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God."
70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?"
So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am."
71And they said, "What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth." |
Anyone care to explain? |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Son of God |
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| Tiger75 wrote: | | I have often heard it argued that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God. |
You'd never hear that from me.
He did however never claim to be God, quite the contrary, why I find no bearing in the trinity idea.
We are all son's and daughter's of God. (Or so is my understanding of the Bible at least)
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Tiger75
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 417
Location: Leicester, England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Son of God |
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| Fake wrote: |
He did however never claim to be God ... |
How do you explain the following (John 8:57-59):
| Quote: | 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. |
Jesus used the Aramaic equivalent of the Tetragrammaton which many people have gone to great lengths on this site to show is the "Proper" name to address God. And it seems to me that the "they" new quite well what Jesus was claiming. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should read the preceding verses too?
| The Bible wrote: | | 54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." |
Remember, since God is allknowing, he knew each and everyone before we were created, and we all AM before even Adam and Eve.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Tiger75
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 417
Location: Leicester, England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:13 pm Post subject: ?? |
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| So the people decided to stone Jesus for proclaiming the doctrine of God's Omniscience, which they would have held to. Why didn't they just say Amen! |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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They misunderstood what Jesus said, remember he liked to talk in parables 
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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LOL Fake, I have never heard it explained like that. I completely disagree with you, but I have never heard it explained in such a manner.
Perhaps they did misunderstand Him in this instance. But what about in chapter eleven, when they specifically accused Him of blasphemy and laid the charge of 'You, being a Man, make Yourself God.' (10:33). Was that a misunderstanding as well?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Not to mention the incident on the stormy sea when Jesus was out for a stroll and the whimpering disciples cried out 'who's out there?' What did He say to them? 'Do not fear, it is I AM'
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| metothezero wrote: | | Perhaps they did misunderstand Him in this instance. But what about in chapter eleven, when they specifically accused Him of blasphemy and laid the charge of 'You, being a Man, make Yourself God.' (10:33). Was that a misunderstanding as well? |
They did indeed misunderstand Jesus, as Jesus states in verse 36 from the same chapter.
| Jesus said, and John wrote: | | do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? |
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Let us look at the passage.
Jesus makes a claim, 'I am the Son of God'.
The Jews interpret this to mean that He is claiming to be God.
You, being an english speaker in the year 2004, are then telling me that you know about the intentions of Jesus some 2000 years ago, when He spoke in a language which you probably do not know?
How about we trust the reading of the text. Jesus makes a claim. The people standing right there, speaking the language, interpret it to mean something. And Jesus does not deny their interpretation, rather affirms it.
Wouldn't it be common sense if Jesus truly did not want to claim to be God that He would have specifically stood up and said, 'No, No, you are completely misunderstanding me.' Rather than speaking of their misunderstanding, He defends His statment. He does not correct their 'misunderstanding' rather He defends His statement more.
I would have to question your authority as to how you can speak with such knowledge about the specific mindset of those who lived some two thousand years ago speaking a language which is completely foreign to yourself, and those which hear this language as well.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| metothezero wrote: | | How about we trust the reading of the text. Jesus makes a claim. |
I do trust the reading of the text. It clearly, without any form of doubt state that Jesus says *I'm the SON of God*.
Jesus, throughout the New Testament call God "my FATHER".
Jesus, shortly before the events that lead to the crucifiction started, said something along these lines at the mount of olives; "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | | I do trust the reading of the text. |
But the reading of the text likewise says that those who were standing right there, right in front of Jesus, listening to His words in their language, in the original language He spoke, understood His words to mean that He was claiming deity.
However, you who are reading a language translated from Koine, which was not the language He spoke in, are then telling us that you know more about what Jesus was saying, that you know that He was not truly claiming deity.
Why would we go with you rather than with those eyewitnesses?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: |
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I'm with meto on this one. It is an interpretation of meaning which we are discussing, not the specifics of the words spoken. We accept this in daily life, why then play games when looking at Christ?
If someone walks into my store and hears me tell someone else "I am the boss", they then hear them say; "you being a man make yourself to be the leader of this entire store". To which I do not correct them by saying "no, no, you misunderstand, I meant I am the boss of just this department..." but rather I continue on, asserting my bossness.
You would rightfully interpret my earlier statement as meaning I am the boss of the entire store.
(okay, it was a lame analogy, but the point remains. You seem to be going through a lot of semantic and grammatic gymnastics just to justify your denial of Jesus' diety.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:52 am Post subject: |
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One other thing; we all agree that Jesus led a sinless life don't we? (based on scripture), so if He made claims which were misunderstood and reasserted those claims and/or defended the and their understood meaning, would that not be a lie? which of course would be a sin, which of course would negate His sinlessness.... hhhmmmmm 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | One other thing; we all agree that Jesus led a sinless life don't we? (based on scripture), so if He made claims which were misunderstood and reasserted those claims and/or defended the and their understood meaning, would that not be a lie? which of course would be a sin, which of course would negate His sinlessness.... hhhmmmmm |
short message, will try to get more time to reply later.
If I say something you missunderstand, (even if I say it in a way that would make it easy to missunderstand) would I lie? No, I would just tell the truth in a way that you don't understand it, as youre set in your own understanding of a subject.
Compare with one of my posts in the homosexuality thread, where I state that I understand the bible to say that a man and a woman should not have anal sex, rather than that all homosexuality is forbidden and sinful.
It states that two men shan't lay wiht each other as a man and a woman, to me it means a man and a woman shouldn't have anal, to you it means two men shouldn't have sex.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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