FrankSinatra and his Witnesses

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

I found a article that explains why some historians think Jerusalen fell to Babylon in 586 B.C.E. and why this is inaccurate.
It's pretty long,but if you want to read it here it is .

“Your Word Is Truth”

When Did Babylon Desolate Jerusalem?

SECULAR historians usually give the year 586 B.C.E. as the correct date for the desolation of Jerusalem. Why, then, do Jehovah’s Christian witnesses speak of this event as occurring in 607 B.C.E.? It is because of confidence in what the Bible says about the duration of Jerusalem’s lying desolate.

The Scriptures assign a period of seventy years to the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem. After describing the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem, 2 Chronicles 36:21 reports: “All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.” By means of his prophet Jeremiah, Jehovah had declared: “All this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”—Jer. 25:11.

Was this really a period of seventy literal years? Yes, that is the way the prophet Daniel, toward the close of the period of Jerusalem’s desolation, understood it, saying: “I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.” (Dan. 9:2) Note that here Daniel speaks of the “number of the years” of devastation as seventy. Surely he could not have done so if the seventy years were symbolic or an inflated round number.

Additional evidence is provided in the book of Zechariah. We read: “When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?” (Zech. 7:5; 1:12) The way this question is framed, with reference to specific months, certainly indicates that a period of seventy literal years was involved.

That the Jews in ancient times understood the seventy years as being literal and involving a total devastation of the land is apparent from the works of Josephus, a Jewish historian. In his Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, chap. 9, par. 7, he tells that “all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years.”

When the Israelites were able to return to Judah and Jerusalem, that desolation ended. There is general agreement that Babylon fell to Cyrus on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E. From the Scriptural record at 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 and Ezra 3:1-3, which tells of Cyrus’ decree liberating the Jews and their return to their homeland, the indications are that the Jews arrived back in their homeland around the early part of October of 537 B.C.E., ending the seventy years of desolation. Jerusalem must, therefore, have been destroyed seventy years earlier, in 607 B.C.E.

Various attempts to harmonize the date 586 B.C.E. with what the Bible says are therefore unsatisfactory. None of such attempts fit the Bible’s testimony that Jerusalem and Judah lay desolate for seventy years.

The 586 B.C.E. date is based primarily on what is known as “Ptolemy’s Canon,” which assigns a total of 87 years to the Babylonian dynasty beginning with Nabopolassar and ending with Nabonidus at the fall of Babylon in 539 B.C.E. According to this Canon, the five kings that ruled during this period were Nabopolassar (21 years), Nebuchadnezzar (43 years), Evil-merodach (2 years), Neriglissar (4 years) and Nabonidus (17 years). In line with the number of years thus assigned to each ruler, Jerusalem’s desolation in Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year (nineteenth year if counting from his “accession year”) would fall in 586 B.C.E.—2 Ki. 25:8; Jer. 52:29.

But how dependable is Ptolemy’s Canon? In his book The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings, Professor E. R. Thiele writes:

“Ptolemy’s canon was prepared primarily for astronomical, not historical, purposes. It did not pretend to give a complete list of all the rulers of either Babylon or Persia, nor the exact month or day of the beginning of their reigns, but it was a device which made possible the correct allocation into a broad chronological scheme of certain astronomical data which were then available. Kings whose reigns were less than a year and which did not embrace the New Year’s day were not mentioned.” (Italics ours.)

So the very purpose of the Canon makes absolute dating by means of it impossible. There is no way to be sure that Ptolemy was correct in assigning a certain number of years to various kings. For example, while Ptolemy credits Evil-merodach with only two years of rule, Polyhistor assigns him twelve years. Then, too, one cannot be certain that just five kings ruled during this period. At Borsippa, for instance, were found names of a number of Babylonian kings that do not appear elsewhere.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

MoJo · Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:12 pm Post subject:

TBax, why would you want to go anywhere other than the bible for the facts? Jer 52 plainly tells us that the carrying away of Judah and the Jews took place over 23 years and that Jerusalem was taken in the 18th year of Nebu's reign. If you do all the math, which I have done, you will see that all the number of the years of the kings of Judah will bring you right to the date given in the KJV of Rehoboam's reign and backwards again right to the date of the exodus in 1491 BC.

Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Jer 25:1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that [was] the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon;

Since captives were taken in Nebu's 7th, 18th and 23rd year, obviously the land was not (((literally))) desolate for 70 years.

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Quite obviously, there were people literally living in Babylon after this time as well, so the problem of interpretation is in understanding what desolate means.

Are the dates important? For the purposes of this discussion, you have hung your hat on the date 1914. Studying this out shows that date to be in error. You use Ezekial 21:25 to prove the crown is removed in 607BC, but the date of these words are given as the 7th year of Jehoiachin's captivity. (Ezek 20:1) It hardly makes sense to be giving this pronouncement 12 or 13 years after the fact.

Aside from that, there is no evidence that a time is 360 years. In Ezekial God assigns 1 day for a year, but this in no way corroborates that the 3.5 times in Daniel is measured the same way. That's an assumption. God changes the times.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

First of all,the Bible does not contain dates,like 1491 BC.It gives us indications as to when things happened,like in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzer.We rely on secular history and archeology to get such dates.

Second,when do you believe the Jews returned to Jerusalem?
Do you disagree that it was 537 BC.?

Third YOU SAID:Aside from that, there is no evidence that a time is 360 years. In Ezekial God assigns 1 day for a year, but this in no way corroborates that the 3.5 times in Daniel is measured the same way. That's an assumption. God changes the times.

MINE:You are entirely wrong regarding this.First,it was 7 times in Daniel.Second,the day for a year principle was applied to the 70 weeks prophesy in Daniel 9 regarding when the Messiah would appear.So it can applie to the 7 times as well.
Third,in Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
AND 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

3.5 times equals 1260 days.1260 divided by 3.5 is 360.

The calculations are accurate.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

MoJo · Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:07 am Post subject:

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

If you concede that it was in 537 BC. that the Jews returned Home,then why do you have a problem with 607 BC..Do you not believe the prophesy about the 70 years?
(Jeremiah 25:12) “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

The Bible writers were insired,not the translators.Translators strive to be accurate,but they are not inspired.

I'm not talking about the Woman or the man child now.That's opening another discussion.Those scriptures were used to prove 1 time equals 360 days.If you want to talk about this latter,we can when the ongoing discussion is resolved.

Regarding the 70 weeks prophesy,the word to rebuild and restore happened during this verse Nehemiah 2:3 Then I said to the king: “Let the king himself live to time indefinite! Why should not my face become gloomy when the city, the house of the burial places of my forefathers, is devastated, and its very gates have been eaten up with fire?” 4 In turn the king said to me: “What is this that you are seeking to secure?” At once I prayed to the God of the heavens. 5 After that I said to the king: “If to the king it does seem good, and if your servant seems good before you, that you would send me to Judah, to the city of the burial places of my forefathers, that I may rebuild it.” 6 At this the king said to me, as his queenly consort was sitting beside him: “How long will your journey come to be and when will you return?” So it seemed good before the king that he should send me, when I gave him the appointed time.
7 And I went on to say to the king: “If to the king it does seem good, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the River, that they may let me pass until I come to Judah; 8 also a letter to A´saph the keeper of the park that belongs to the king, that he may give me trees to build with timber the gates of the Castle that belongs to the house, and for the wall of the city and for the house into which I am to enter.” So the king gave [them] to me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

This happened in 455 BC.in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king.The Messiah would appear at the end of 69 weeks,or 483 days.A day for a year you get 483 years.455 BC. plus 483 years comes to 29 AD.
During the 70th week this happened:27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.
Jesus ministry was 3.5 years till he was exacuted causing sacrifice and gift offerings of the mosiac law to cease.Jesus was the end of that law.The Abrahamic covenant was in force for the remainder of that week,after which the opportunity to become born again was open to gentiles as well.

Hope this helps.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

MoJo · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject:

TBax,

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

I seriously don't understand your point.You said And I quote"This would be my first point of contention. The date Babylon overthrew Jerusalem. How did you arrive at this date? What date are you using to begin the calculations to arrive at this and what sources have you used? "

I give you the appropriate information and Now you say you don't dispute 607 BC. give or take a year?Why was I jumping through the hoops then?
You must admit that 1914 is accurate or at least close,give or take a year.
By the way 537 plus 70 =607 not 606.

Next regarding the 70 weeks prophesy,do you not believe Jesus was baptised in 29 AD.?
According to your understanding of who Artaxerxes was,would have Jesus becoming the Messiah in 18 BC.Do you believe Jesus was baptised in 18 BC.?
Are you disputing the accuracy of these prophesies?
Many historians place Jerusalems fall at 586 BC. ,because they sometimes rely on incomplete or inaccurate records, yet you agree it's around 607 BC..Sometimes historians are wrong,but prophesies from Jehovah are not.

Plus their is ample proof that Artaxerxes accession year was 475 BC.If you want to see this evidence from Greek,Persian,and Babylonian sources I'll provide it,but it is very long.Here is a small peice of proof.

Many believe Artaxerxes Longimanus ruled for just 41 years.However notice:
Evidence that Artaxerxes Longimanus ruled beyond his 41st year is found in a business document from Borsippa that is dated to the 50th year of Artaxerxes. (Catalogue of the Babylonian Tablets in the British Museum, Vol. VII: Tablets From Sippar 2, by E. Leichty and A. K. Grayson, 1987, p. 153; tablet designated B. M. 65494) One of the tablets connecting the end of Artaxerxes’ reign and the beginning of the reign of Darius II has the following date: “51st year, accession year, 12th month, day 20, Darius, king of lands.” (The Babylonian Expedition of the University of Pennsylvania, Series A: Cuneiform Texts, Vol. VIII, Part I, by Albert T. Clay, 1908, pp. 34, 83, and Plate 57, Tablet No. 127, designated CBM 12803) Since the first regnal year of Darius II was in 423 B.C.E., it means that the 51st year of Artaxerxes was in 424 B.C.E. and his first regnal year was in 474 B.C.E.

My question to you is,why do you dispute these dates?Are you trying to prove the Bible wrong?Do you think the prophesy about the Messiah appearing is inaccurate?What is your point?

Said in peace.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

kindoman · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 7 Location: RSA

Sorry I have been away so long.
Tbax, You can argue it as much as you want with Mojo, the JW’s might have a point. But when you get back to the point of the original post, we can definitely see that 1914 is revealed doctrine, just like The Trinity. But I have to say to you write now that this is but one of the false prophecies of the Watchtower.
I would like to quote from the Harp of God published in 1929 (after 1914):

1799 definitely marks the beginning of 'the time of the end'.... 'The time of the end' embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire....we have been in 'the time of the end' since 1799

Now read this also from The Harp of God:

The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874....From 1874 forward is the latter part of the period of 'the time of the end'. From 1874 is the time of the Lord's second presence... It was in the year 1874, the date of our Lord's second presence

Then we read from your founding father CT Russell published under the title “The Time is at Hand”:

we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914

And from Ibid.

the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced

And from the Watchtower of July 1894

CAN IT BE DELAYED UNTIL 1914?...our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can last so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble

So from this we see that the Society taught that the beginning of the End-times was in 1799 and the Christ’s second presence was in 1874 (this is the latter period of “the end times”) and then that the battle of Armageddon would take place in 1914 and that from there Gods kingdom will be established on earth and that Millions then living will never die. We see that 1914 is the end not the beginning and that it is Gods date and cannot be changed.

Now I would like to take this text from the Watchtower website to show what they currently believe.

Have those things that Jesus and Paul foretold taken place in our time? Yes, they certainly have. World War I was by far the worst war up to that time. It was the first world war and was the turning point in modern history. Along with that war went food shortages, disease epidemics, and other calamities. Those events from 1914 onward were, as Jesus put it, "a beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) They began the foretold period of time called "the last days," the beginning of the last generation when God would permit wickedness and suffering.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/pr/article_07.htm

This is a prophetic failure.
Jehovah's Witnesses have attempted to blunt criticism of their past prophetic failures by professing never to have claimed to be a prophet – but this is also false.

Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'" (Awake!, 22 March 1993 p. 4).

How can they claim that? Just above we see them calling 1914 Gods Date. They also call it “the Creator's promise”

"Just as Jesus' prophecies regarding Jerusalem were fulfilled within the life span of the generation of the year 33 C.E., so his prophecies regarding 'the time of the end' will be fulfilled within the life span of the generation of 1914... Yes, you may live to see this promised New Order, along with survivors of the generation of 1914 - the generation that will not pass away. (Watchtower, 15 May 1984, pp. 6-7)

We see from this that the Society believed that people living will see the New order, They then went on to change the definition of a generation to still back up these claims.

I am not condemning JW’s, I have great concern that these followers have such a great knowledge of the bible but yet ignore the Societies problems.

Tbax.
Please without going into too much detail and trying to add explainations that don’t exist tell me whether the Society is in violation of Deuteronomy 18:20-22

0`Only, the prophet who presumeth to speak a word in My name--that which I have not commanded him to speak--and who speaketh in the name of other gods--even that prophet hath died. 21`And when thou sayest in thy heart, How do we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? -- 22that which the prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, and the thing is not, and cometh not--it is the word which Jehovah hath not spoken; in presumption hath the prophet spoken it; --thou art not afraid of him.

Even the Society slanders itself.

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world,' even announcing a specific date... Yet, nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them" (Awake!, 8 October 1968, p. 23).
Now tell me the truth, is there not a lot more sense and clarity to be found in the Trinity Doctrine.

MoJo · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:13 am Post subject:

TBax,

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

The Jews returned in 537 so you don't include that year as part of the exile.But that is a minor point.Do you believe the Kingdom was established in 1915?or perhaps 1913?

This is how our wires got crossed.You said And I quote"This would be my first point of contention. The date Babylon overthrew Jerusalem. How did you arrive at this date? What date are you using to begin the calculations to arrive at this and what sources have you used? "

The rest of your writtings,I have no idea what your point is.Are you trying to use your knowledge to disprove prophesy?Do you think God was wrong and you are right?When do you think the 69 weeks started and when do you think they ended.
Nehemiah 1:3 shows the work was not advancing.Do you not believe what Neheniah told the King.Neh 2:3 Then I said to the king: “Let the king himself live to time indefinite! Why should not my face become gloomy when the city, the house of the burial places of my forefathers, is devastated, and its very gates have been eaten up with fire?”

Now you are useing your calculations to prove Jesus was not baptised in 29 AD.Do you believe God cannot prophesy accurately?

Again according to your calculations, the messiah would appear in 18BC.Do you believe that?

Perhaps you do not believe Daniel was a prophet.Don't you believe these are prophesies?What exactly is your point?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Kindoman,

The watchtower organization is not an inspired prophet.So when they try to understand the Bible they are not making prophesies.If you try to understand the Bible and are wrong,are you a false prophet?And I'm sure you read this before.Prov 4:18 But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.
That Day is now firmly established and the light is bright.If you quote things from 100 years ago there will be inaccuracies as the light wasn't very bright at that time.God reveals this understanding progressively.

The real question is:
Do you not believe we are living in the last days?
Do you believe God's Kingdom is now ruling?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

MoJo · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:47 am Post subject:

TBax,

You're not getting it. I'm not out to prove (((my))) point. It doesn't matter what I think. All I have done is harmonize the scriptures. If the scriptures themselves prove a point, it's not to my glory, but to the Lord's. All I did was take the facts we are given and put them together. Not only that, I have been studying Ezra and Nehemiah off on on for some time and only just got it myself the other day. The timeline of this temple is proved by scripture.

Now I ask myself, such a simple miss this reference to 46 years to build the temple. How blind can we be? And yet you will insist that you know what the seventy years of Daniel mean when you can't even admit you may have been in error regarding the dates of Ezra's temple. IOW, you have concluded that 1914 is the date and therefore all other things must be twisted to fit. You have concluded that the 69 1/2 weeks must be referring to Jesus' baptism, therefore all other things must be twisted to fit.

Quite simply, you put the cart before the horse. You should be asking; if the decree was given in 537, can 70 weeks mean 490 years? But not only that, the scripture says, when the commandment came forth. Are we sure this commandment coming forth is the same thing as Cyrus' decree? And why is the 70 weeks distinctly divided into 7 weeks first? What is this 7 weeks? And what does it mean for Messiah to be cut off?

These are some of my questions, TBax, because I'm not out to prove a point - I'm out to learn. And I have only one teacher. This teacher blessed me with explaining the 46 years, so I guess I'll stick with him. If you want to stick with what men teach you regardless of their fabric being full of holes, that's up to you.

I entered into this discussion to learn something and I did. Now you are attacking me and putting words in my mouth and accusing me of saying God can't prophecy accurately. I have not used any of this information concerning the dates of Ezra and Nehemiah to prove anything regarding the date of Jesus' baptism or the length of the 70 weeks. It's you who is doing this and continuing to do this in the face of having your facts proven wrong, not by me, but by scripture. It's you who keeps making assumptions about what I have ((not)) said.

Personally, I'm thrilled that the Lord has made this matter concerning Ezra and Nehemiah clear to me, but now I will end our discussion because you do not have the spirit of reason when scriptural truths are laid out in front of you. Any future conversation would only end up in you hurling insults rather than in seeking the truth. But I thank the Lord for sending you because I have profited by it in being one step closer to understanding.

Peace. Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo ,

So what your saying is Daniel prophesy of the appearance of the Messiah is not a prophesy at all?Your saying the 69 weeks meant nothing?
Don't you believe this is talking about Jesus?I'm not being argumentative,I don't understand what you believe.

Your 46 years proved nothing.The call was to rebuild Jerusalem.Not necessarily the temple.Your whole Darius thing is in error.The call to rebuild Jerusalem was in Nehemiah's day,when Jerusalem was still in ruins.Is it coincidence that this call went out in 455 BC. or is it fulfillment of prophesy?

Seriously,do you not beleive this is a prophesy about when the Messiah would appear?What is your interpretation of this?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

P.S.For the most part I Didn't make assumptions,I asked you questions as to what you believe.If you consider this attacking you I'm sorry,there's nothing I can do about that.I can't learn what you believe unless I ask questions.Instead of becoming offended,Just answer and set me straight.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1970

Mojo,

If you are not going to answer any more,I just want to clear a few things up,before I go.
Perhaps I don't appear to you to have the spirit of reason,because I don't believe what you say,like Darius is Artaxerxes in Nehemiahs day.You did not provide any scriptural proof for this.Why should I believe this if there is no proof?

The scripture you showed proved Artaxerxes had a 32 year and you proceded to show Darius had a 32 year.Is this supose to be proof that they are the same person?If there was another point I don't know what it is.
Did you know that Darius and Artaxerxes were named together in the Bible.So they couldn't be the same person.
Ezra 6:14and they built and finished [it] due to the order of the God of Israel and due to the order of Cyrus and Da·ri´us and Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia.

Do you still think Darius is Artaxerxes?

So you see,you really didn't prove you point.You have not laid out scriptural truths,but simply your own ideas as to what the scriptures say.The Bible proves you wrong.

I don't believe anything was "twisted to fit " what I believe.Artaxerxes ascention year was 475 BC. as there is proof that he ruled longer that some records show.We know what year his rule ended in 424.Some records show he ruled 41 years which would make his ascention year 465 BC..However there is other proof that he ruled for 51 years makeing his ascention year 475 BC.

Is it Just coincidence that in his 20th year,455 BC., Nehemiah came to him in this year to ask to rebuilt Jerusalem and it's wall,and that 483 years later Jesus was baptised,and appeared as the Messiah?

Is it just coincidence that Jesus preached for 3.5 years and was cut off causing gift offerings and sacrifices of the mosiac law to cease.Jesus provided a greater sacrifice making the mosiac Law obsolete.

Is it just coincidence that the prospect to be Born Again was extended to the Jews only[Abrahamic covenant in force for one week] until the end of that week and then gentiles were extended this opportunity?Cornelius being the first in 36 AD.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was yet speaking about these matters the holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. 45 And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.

Is this all coincidence?Am I twisting scriptures to fit and make it seem like these are prophesies fulfilled?I don't think so.I think it's pretty accurate.I can understand you using that kind of argument with the 1914 thing. But you do this with history and prophesies already fulfilled.That is why I don't understand your position.That is why I ask sharp questions.Because you don't seem to believe prophesy.When I ask questions you don't answer,it just leaves me wondering what you believe.I still don't know what you believe,but keep learning,keep reading your Bible.The truth is there.

I realise,even though it's not my intention,my writting can appear aggressive sometimes.I think sometimes I ask sharper questions because I really want a responce.But I see it just tends to upset people.
Keep learning and keep humble.
Good bye MOJO

Agape,
Tbax
_________________
Agape,
TBax