FrankSinatra and his Witnesses

metothezero · Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:16 am Post subject: FrankSinatra and his Witnesses

Sir, I will allow you the first comment. I do believe that if we discussed the Witnesses then this would crumble every doctrine that they have told you. But if you would like to stick with the Trinity doctrine that is quite allright. But the mike is open to you, what is your first objection to whatever (I know you have them...)?

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

metothezero,

There is no trinity in the Bible. It is a doctrine that came about over hundreds of years after the apostles died,when apostasy entered the congregation.
The Bible proves there is no trinity,it clearly says at 1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
I've seen alot of people use alot of ambiguous verses to try to prove the trinity is true but they overlook simple,straight foward verses like this one.

Also who did Jesus think "God" was. In Prayer to his Father who does Jesus recognise as the true God.
John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you,the only true God,and of the one whom you sent forth,Jesus Christ."

To say there is a trinity is to say Jesus was wrong,and the apostles were wrong.Do you believe they are wrong and that the Father is not the only true God?

kindoman · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 7 Location: RSA

TBax,

Just a little history:
The Trinity is a revelled doctrine, just like the JW's thought 1914 was a revealed doctrine. If as you say the Trinity was formulated 100s of years after Christ you must remember that the WTB&TS doctrine was developed 1900 years after Christ.

This is a copy and past from a personal essay that I am writing.

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the bible. It is a doctrine based on what we believe as Christians the bible is telling us.
This has been one of the main reasons there has been so much debate surrounding the Trinity.
People that hold the belief that the Trinity is not true believe we worship three Gods and not one as the bible tells us we should a.
But once you have an understanding of the Scriptures you will see that it is not the case. Nor are we as Christians dishonouring God.
The Trinity might be explained like this. God is in Tri-unity, with each persona of the Godhead equal in power and fully Almighty God. Each persona is needed, and each is unique, but all are one. The three Persons appear in contributory order. The Father is the invisible, omnipresent Source of all existence. He is revealed through the Son. Experienced by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. And in Gods creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the voice calling it forth, and the Spirit is the power making it a reality.

The word Trinity is derived from the Greek word trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to articulate this doctrine.
Theophilus was a Christian, most likely Roman, to whom Luke devoted both his Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles. Nothing beyond this is known of him. From the fact that Luke applies to him the title “most excellent”, the same title Paul uses in addressing Felix and Festus, it has been concluded that Theophilus was a person of status, perhaps a Roman officer.
The first time that the Trinity was harmonized into Christian doctrine was at the Nicene Counsel from where the Nicene Creed originated.
The purpose of a Christian creed was to institute agreement of belief, uniquely essential for Christians, and by public professions of the faith, to recognize heretics or any disconformities inside each community. The Creed is an embodiment, not a full definition, of what is required for individual orthodoxy. It was hoped that by memorizing this summary of the faith, lay people without broad theological training would still be able to identify deviations from orthodox Christianity.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Kindoman,

Nice explanation of why you believe the trinity.However we need to keep in mind a very important verse.2 Thess 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

The Trinity is a result of the man of lawlessness,the apostasy.God fortold that there would be a turning away from the truth and the trinity is one of this apostasies fruitage.

The explicit doctrine of the trinity is found nowhere in the Bible.People who support the trinity use all sorts of ambiguous verses to support their claim.However Jesus did not believe the trinity(John 17 : 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. )
And the apostles didn't believe the trinity (1 cor 8: 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.)

By the way,1914 is revealed doctrine.Jesus started to rule as King of God's Kingdom in that year and the last days began in that year.

Matt 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the [size=18]sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things[/size]?”

4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Agape,
TBax

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

P.S Kindoman,do you believe we are living in the Last days?

MoJo · Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:19 am Post subject:

1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Hbr 1:1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It couldn't be clearer that the last days started with Jesus. Why do you continue to follow the doctrines of men?

Very Happy

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Mojo,

YOU SAID:It couldn't be clearer that the last days started with Jesus. Why do you continue to follow the doctrines of men?

MINE: What do you mean the last days started with Jesus?
You do realize there are the last days of the Jewish system of things the ended in 70 A.D when the Romans conquered Jerusalem as Jesus foretold,but there is a greater fulfillment.
There is also the last days of this present system of things,when Jesus is in Kingdom power and rules in the midst of his enemies.This presence of Jesus coinsides with the sign of the last days.WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Also,what are you talking about "doctrine of men."The Trinity is a doctrine of man.I follow the Bible.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

P.S. 1914 is proved by Bible cronology and by the signs we see.Do you see the signs?

MoJo · Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:00 am Post subject:

Hi TBax. Have to go out now and don't have time, but perhaps you could start by showing me this bible chronology that proves 1914.
Show me the math and I'll listen.

Very Happy

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

And here I thought that the Romans were in control of Palestine (current Israel), at the time of Jesus' birth, and before that time as well...
Guess that never happened, and figures like Herod was not really Romans, but something else...

Fake

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Fake,

You should do a little history homework.Rome was in controll,but the Jews rebelled.The Jewish revolt began in 66 C.E., two years before Nero’s death, but was not suppressed until 70 C.E. in the reign of Vespasian (69-79 C.E.)

Jesus prophesied LUKE 21:20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;

Finally, in 66 C.E., the Jews rebelled against Rome. When Cestius Gallus led an army to besiege Jerusalem, Jesus’ followers remembered Jesus’ words: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her.” (Luke 21:20, 21) The time had come to leave Jerusalem—but how? Unexpectedly, Gallus withdrew his troops, opening the way for Christians in Jerusalem and Judea to obey Jesus’ words and flee to the mountains.

Four years later, about Passover time, Roman troops returned under General Titus, who was determined to stamp out the Jewish rebellion. His army surrounded Jerusalem and built “a fortification with pointed stakes,” making escape impossible. (Luke 19:43, 44) Despite the threat of war, Jews from all over the Roman Empire had flocked to Jerusalem for the Passover. Now they were trapped. According to Josephus, these hapless visitors made up the majority of the casualties of the Roman siege. When Jerusalem finally fell, about one seventh of all Jews in the Roman Empire perished. The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple meant the end of the Jewish state and its religious system based on the Mosaic Law

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Mojo,

This is regarding 1914 cronology.It's pretty in depth,but here it goes.

The Kings of Isreal were said to sit on Jehovah's throne because they represented God's rulership at one time.

1Chronicals 28:5 and out of all my sons (for many are the sons whom Jehovah has given me) he then chose Sol´o·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel.

However because of Isreals continued rebellousness,God would take away that representative of his rulership over the Earth until Jesus came to receive this kingship.

Ezekial 21:25 “And as for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of [the] end, 26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

God lifted off this crown in 607 B.C.E. when Babylon overthrew Jerusalem.There would be no representative for God's rulership anymore until Jesus.But Jesus didn't take Kingship right away.A prophesy in Daniel shows when Jesus would be given this Kingship,when God's Kingdom would begin to operate.

The following is from the book" Reasoning from the scriptures".

Read Daniel 4:1-17. Verses 20-37 show that this prophecy had a fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar. But it also has a larger fulfillment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream that God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar deals with the Kingdom of God and God’s promise to give it “to the one whom he wants to . . . even the lowliest one of mankind.” The entire Bible shows that Jehovah’s purpose is for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to rule as His representative over mankind. (Ps. 2:1-8; Dan. 7:13, 14; 1 Cor. 15:23-25; Rev. 11:15; 12:10) The Bible’s description of Jesus shows that he was indeed “the lowliest one of mankind.” (Phil. 2:7, 8; Matt. 11:28-30) The prophetic dream, then, points to the time when Jehovah would give rulership over mankind to his own Son.
What was to happen in the meantime? Rulership over mankind, as represented by the tree and its rootstock, would have “the heart of a beast.” (Dan. 4:16) The history of mankind would be dominated by governments that displayed the characteristics of wild beasts. In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China. The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan. (Dan. 7:2-8, 17, 23; 8:20-22; Rev. 13:1, 2) As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.
For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.
When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “Let Your Kingdom Come,” pages 186-189.)
How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.
CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14.
Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? After Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons were hurled out of heaven and down to the earth. (Rev. 12:12) Christ as King did not immediately proceed to destroy all who refused to acknowledge Jehovah’s sovereignty and himself as the Messiah. Instead, as he had foretold, a global preaching work was to be done. (Matt. 24:14) As King he would direct a dividing of peoples of all nations, those proving to be righteous being granted the prospect of everlasting life, and the wicked being consigned to everlasting cutting-off in death. (Matt. 25:31-46) In the meantime, the very difficult conditions foretold for “the last days” would prevail. As shown under the heading “Last Days,” those events have been clearly in evidence since 1914. Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all the things foretold will occur, including the “great tribulation” in which the present wicked world will end.—Matt. 24:21, 22, 34.

MoJo · Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject:

Hi TBax. Sorry for the delay. First the boards were down and then I was busy with some things. I've actually had this conversation before with someone else and at the time was led to check into all the dates and lengths of rules of the kings, so I'm pretty familiar with it. Let's go real slow and maybe we'll both learn something. Very Happy

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Mojo,

I don't understand your problem.Even if what you say is true,when Nebuchadnezzer overthrough Jerusalem,Zedekiah didn't have soverignty anymore,but was a vasel king,like a govenor.What you said changes nothing.Zedekiah ceased to sit on Jehovah's throne,he was now answerable to Nebuchadnezzer now.
Even after the exile,there were jewish rulers,however they were always answerable to whatever Pagan King dominated their nation.That is what the heart of the beast is,pagan nations dominating and God not interfering.
So the calculations stand,and are accurate.

When do you think Jesus took rulership in God's Kingdom?
The sign Jesus gave corroberates this date.In 1914 World War I broke out.Shortly after there was plague, food shortage ect...And we are still living in these criticle times hard to deal with.Do you see the sign?

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1902

Mojo,

A little more about that date.I did some reaserch on the web and found this quote "By the turn of the century most historians had accepted the modern dates for the fall of Babylon and the repatriation of the Jews, 539 and 537 B.C. respectively. "

In my reaserch I see historians fix different dates for the fall of Jerusalem.Yet most agree that 539 is the year Persia conquered Babylon.Some differ by a year.Yet it is usually the same.

There are prophesies that say Judah would be desolate for 70 years.

(Jeremiah 25:12) “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

(Zechariah 1:12) So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?”

2 Chron 36:21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

The Jews returned in 537 B.C.E.Count back 70 years and what year do you come to?607B.C.E.

Still,regardless of when Jerusalem was destroyed,Jesus began to rule as King of God's Kingdom early last century.Weather you want to believe it was 1914 or not ,any starting date you use,Jesus is now in Kingdom power and we are in the Last Days.