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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 375
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 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| STABYC, you already know what I am about to say: Everybody has a bible and different ways of interpreting it. You, as an individual, will simply have to choose which interpretion jives with your heart's interpretion and then 'file' it away as a part of your faith. Note, I said YOUR faith, not someone else's. |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 375
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | I may be wrong, but i think with a hermaprhodite you can tell what gender they are by their chromosomes. If they have X and Y chromosomes they are male, if they have X and X chromosomes they are female. |
Atleast you admit that you might be wrong:) Sometimes a male or female may have an extra chromosome that 'normally' is associated with the opposite gender. In other words, there are exceptions to this 'rule'.
| Quote: | | As to the idea of being gay from birth - that would be a hard one to prove. How can you tell if a 1 day old baby is gay? |
How can you tell if a 1 day old baby is straight?
| Quote: | | Homosexual behavior does not have its primary origin in the biological make-up of some men or women. It is primarily a learned behavior. |
Note, this quote says SOME men or women, which implies that for SOME, homosexual behavior is in their biological make-up. For those for whom it is not, they are likely those who are 'set free' from the acts and go on to say all can be set free. To say it is PRIMARILY a learned behavior is also to imply that for SOME, it is not a learned behavior.
| Quote: | | The bible does not deal with biological versus social origins of homosexuality, it simply condemns the practice. |
Exactly. This says that we know more things today in our society than our biblical counterparts knew. Kind of like today, we don't condone slavery. In comparison with our biblical couterparts who didn't know better. I will also add that it condemns the practice in contexts that are loveless or contexts that have nothing to do with love.
| Quote: | | I have seen quite a few cases myself where homosexuality was a direct result of sexual abuse. |
Exactly. Situations where said persons who may not have been initially homosexual, an abusive situation can result in homosexual activity. Likely, these are the person who are 'set free' because they were not gay innately in the first place, and the mindset is that ALL gays can be set free when the persons in question were not gay in the first place. They simply got into homosexual activity as a RESULT OF ABUSE.
| Quote: | | I believe the gay rights movement itself is a demonic movement. These sinners have made their damaged sexuality the focal point of their life. |
The only reason that I can see that gays have made their sexuality the focal point of their life is because it has been the focal point of those opposed to them. Our sexuality is no more a part of us than heterosexuality is a part of a heterosexual person's life. It does not define us, but it is a part of us that has been made to be the focal point of who we are because it is the part of us that is opposed by others. Usually, WE are not opposed, but what we DO is opposed and therefore the focal point. I've never considered myself a part of a movement, but by expressing my views MAY make me a part of it, I suppose:)
| Quote: | | They are controlled by the Devil. Sexual, rebellion, shame, self-hate, bitterness, and disease demons swarm in and around their movement, gleefully inspiring them to ever more flagrant and self-destructive vices. |
If true, I am then controlled by the devil, yet I do not acknowledge the devil. I am supposedly inspired to be flagrant and self destructive and I am rebellious, full of shame, bitter, and I hate myself. Hmm. Not me at all, but, again, IF true.....!
| Quote: | | "homosexuals can't change" is a lie that has permeated our society. It's accepted as a fact within many churches. But the heart of the gospel is the hope of new life for all who seek it, including homosexuals. And as Holywind and many others can testify, it is possible to change. |
I believe change is possible for those who do not produce fruits of the Spirit. I believe they are purged of those things that aid in their inablility to produce these fruits. If 'he' sees fit, God will change a person in this regard.
| Quote: | | There is another problem within the church in regards to how it looks at homosexuality. In the eyes of many believers, homosexuals and child abusers are to be detested. This attitude delights Satan and his evil spirits. For years they have been telling damaged people who battle with homosexual problems that the church hates them and will not receive them. Many Christians have become Satan's allies in this regard, parroting Satan's lie that homosexuals are to be scorned and rejected. |
I will agree here. Fortuanately, my relationship with God is not one that has to go through a man made church in order to exist with God.
| Quote: | | Not all practicing homosexuals are demonized, but the demonic activity in the movement is very strong. And there are many individual homosexuals who are demonized, some severely. |
How then would you classify those homosexuals that are not demonized? If not controlled by the devil, then what? |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| summertime wrote: | | How can you tell if a 1 day old baby is straight? |
That's my point. It is pretty ludicrous to say that someone's sexual identity is formed from birth. It is an impossible thing to test for at that young age.
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I have seen quite a few cases myself where homosexuality was a direct result of sexual abuse.
Exactly. Situations where said persons who may not have been initially homosexual, an abusive situation can result in homosexual activity. Likely, these are the person who are 'set free' because they were not gay innately in the first place, and the mindset is that ALL gays can be set free when the persons in question were not gay in the first place. They simply got into homosexual activity as a RESULT OF ABUSE.
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I've never heard of someone becoming heterosexual because of child abuse - doesn't that tell you something?? Just that fact that homosexuality can be related to child abuse should send up a red flag.
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They are controlled by the Devil. Sexual, rebellion, shame, self-hate, bitterness, and disease demons swarm in and around their movement, gleefully inspiring them to ever more flagrant and self-destructive vices.
If true, I am then controlled by the devil, yet I do not acknowledge the devil. I am supposedly inspired to be flagrant and self destructive and I am rebellious, full of shame, bitter, and I hate myself. Hmm. Not me at all, but, again, IF true.....!
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I was not speaking of all homosexuals, but the homosexual movement itself. I think most would agree with me about the gay parades being very shameful and flagrant. As far as being self destructive, all you have to do is look at how AIDS has flourished in the gay community, look at how they hurt their own cause in California by performing all those gay marriages - now the country wants gay marriages banned.
People in general don't appreciate "in-your-face" sexuality, regardless of whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. But, the whole homosexual movement is about throwing their sexuality in your face.
As far as you being controlled by the Devil, you may be. You are "at peace" with sin, and that's not of God.
| Quote: | | How then would you classify those homosexuals that are not demonized? If not controlled by the devil, then what? |
As stated earlier in the same post, some are homosexual because of child abuse. That can also involve demons, but it is not the primary source in such a case. |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 375
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | That's my point. It is pretty ludicrous to say that someone's sexual identity is formed from birth. It is an impossible thing to test for at that young age. |
There may be some people out there who have tested it. Look into it if you need to. I'm sure you might find some info.
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I've never heard of someone becoming heterosexual because of child abuse - doesn't that tell you something?? Just that fact that homosexuality can be related to child abuse should send up a red flag. |
There are gay persons who get into heterosexuality when it is not their innate orientation. Why? Abuse? I don't know. Because you've never heard of it does not mean it does not happen or has not happened. There are many things you've never heard of, I'm sure.
| Quote: | | I was not speaking of all homosexuals, but the homosexual movement itself. I think most would agree with me about the gay parades being very shameful and flagrant. |
Agreed!
| Quote: | | As far as being self destructive, all you have to do is look at how AIDS has flourished in the gay community, look at how they hurt their own cause in California by performing all those gay marriages - now the country wants gay marriages banned. |
How can getting married hurt their cause? If they believed they could marry and they sought to do so, why does that hurt them? As far as AIDS, I don't know the statistics. I've heard it has decreased in the gay community and risen in other communities, but I don't the the FACTS.
People in general don't appreciate "in-your-face" sexuality, regardless of whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. But, the whole homosexual movement is about throwing their sexuality in your face.
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As far as you being controlled by the Devil, you may be. You are "at peace" with sin, and that's not of God. |
The operative word is MAY. I don't feel that I am. I am pretty much aware when I am doing wrong and always conscience of God's presence and my being watched in my heart and outwardly. If I don't recognize something as sin, then, to me, it is not sin. |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | As to the idea of being gay from birth - that would be a hard one to prove. How can you tell if a 1 day old baby is gay? |
I guess I should have said "from the time that she developed a personality" instead of from birth, but I assumed that you would know what I meant. Well, you know what they say about assuming!
| larryjf wrote: | Homosexual behavior does not have its primary origin in the biological make-up of some men or women. It is primarily a learned behavior.
The diverse psychological components of masculinity and femininity (gender role identity) are learned. |
If this is true, then why were my friends brothers and sisters not effected by the same "demonization", who are all around the same age, raised by the same people in the same way?
| larryjf wrote: | In American culture, sex roles are most powerfully determined in the home, and at such a young age (usually the first few years), that the psychological identity of most homosexuals and heterosexuals is set before they know it.
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Again, if this were true, would not fatherless families with sons raise them to be feminine and/or gay? And Vice Versa?
I have been through a lot of abuse in my life. And I have never known (as in family, in-laws, friends, husband, etc) a man that was not an adulteror and most were abusers. But that did not turn me against men or make me a lesbian, although it did make me better understand the inclination!
| RevJP wrote: | | STABYC, please read the links I posted to the sermons by John Piper. I would love to rehash them for you, but I would like you, and Summertime, and Larry to read them firsthand, then go from there. |
Thanks RevJP for the info. Will look it up now. |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| STABYC wrote: | If this is true, then why were my friends brothers and sisters not effected by the same "demonization", who are all around the same age, raised by the same people in the same way?
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The demonization aspect is seperate from the aspect of environment we are raised in. Demons can attach themselves to individuals, not neccesarily a whole family of people.
That being said, it could be the case that only 1 child is abused in a family, or that the children deal with the abuse in a different manner. But again, it is not always a result of abuse.
If a boy does not get the recognition he needs from his father as a "male", or if his mother is overly protective of the boy and she instills the idea not to trust females. Anything that could harm the childs gender role identity can be the problem.
| Quote: | Again, if this were true, would not fatherless families with sons raise them to be feminine and/or gay? And Vice Versa?
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Men that are "on the down-low"(consider themselves heterosexual, but practice homosexual sex) are for the most part from fatherless families.
With females it is more often the case that something has caused them to not trust men. Sex is an area that you really open yourself up emotionally, physically, and spiritually. If you can't trust the other person, it will not be an attraction to you.
| Quote: | | I have been through a lot of abuse in my life. And I have never known (as in family, in-laws, friends, husband, etc) a man that was not an adulteror and most were abusers. But that did not turn me against men or make me a lesbian, although it did make me better understand the inclination! |
People handle abuse in different ways. Homosexuality is simply one of the ways a person deals with sexual abuse or gender role identity problems at home.
I am suprised since you have never known a man that was not an adulteror and most have been abusers that you are not against men. Why wouldn't you be against adulterous abusers??
It is this very lack of trust of men that many homosexual women find incompatible with sex. Deep down it is hard to have sex when there is no trust. |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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summertime,
your response in regards to being able to test infants for sexual inclinations...
| Quote: | | There may be some people out there who have tested it. Look into it if you need to. I'm sure you might find some info. |
If someone is testing infants for sexual inclinations they should be arrested. Anyone who does anything sexual to an infant (even if it's for testing) should not be looked at as a reliable source, but should be handled by the justice system.
| Quote: | There are gay persons who get into heterosexuality when it is not their innate orientation. Why? Abuse? I don't know. Because you've never heard of it does not mean it does not happen or has not happened. There are many things you've never heard of, I'm sure.
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It's not just a matter if i have heard of it - it's a matter of nobody has heard of it. If someone hear has, please post it.
| Quote: | | How can getting married hurt their cause? If they believed they could marry and they sought to do so, why does that hurt them? |
What hurt them was the breaking of the law. It was against the law in CA for homosexuals to get married. When the public saw the "gay movement" disregarding the law it upset the public. Homosexuals should not be allowed to break the law, just like nobody else should break the law.
What hurt their cause was that it turned the public against them. Now there are quite a few states that have banned homosexual marriages, and the public is more against it than they were before the CA marriages. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | summertime wrote: |
How can you tell if a 1 day old baby is straight? |
That's my point. It is pretty ludicrous to say that someone's sexual identity is formed from birth. It is an impossible thing to test for at that young age. |
My point would be this: One cannot truly know if it is an orientation from birth or not, so to assume it is not and state emphatically that it is a learned behavior is simply a cling to assumption to better support a judgement one has no right to make. Essentially it is the basis for the support to condemn a people rather than an action.
| summertime wrote: | | Everybody has a bible and different ways of interpreting it. You, as an individual, will simply have to choose which interpretion jives with your heart's interpretion and then 'file' it away as a part of your faith. Note, I said YOUR faith, not someone else's. |
Scripture tells us that there is ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE. It also tells us that interpretation of scripture is aided and given by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit guides our interpretation of scripture and there is only ONE TRUTH, then correct interpretation should jive will all other indwelt students of scripture. Thus negating the idea that I can interpret scripture however I want and accept that it is the truth regardless of the possible conflicts with the whole of scripture and the interpretations of other believers. |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | My point would be this: One cannot truly know if it is an orientation from birth or not, so to assume it is not and state emphatically that it is a learned behavior is simply a cling to assumption to better support a judgement one has no right to make. Essentially it is the basis for the support to condemn a people rather than an action |
Agreed.
It shouldn't matter whether someone is born that way or they choose it, it's still condemned in the bible.
The bible never insinuates that being born with certain inclinations is an excuse for sin.
After all, we are all born sinners, yet God does not in any way look at this as an excuse to sin. |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 375
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Scripture tells us that there is ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE. It also tells us that interpretation of scripture is aided and given by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit guides our interpretation of scripture and there is only ONE TRUTH, then correct interpretation should jive will all other indwelt students of scripture. Thus negating the idea that I can interpret scripture however I want and accept that it is the truth regardless of the possible conflicts with the whole of scripture and the interpretations of other believers. |
I do believe there are students of scripture who believe they are led by the Holy Spirit who differ with other indwelt students of scripture. They seem to exist! You can hear it from one christian radio program to the next. One preacher has this view while another has that view on the same issue. You might have it that they both take a count to see who agrees with them and then compare numbers, having the one with the most students on their side end up being the correct interpreters. Not sure about that! At one point, indwelling students of scriptre favored slavery and keeping slavering in place. Others opposed interracial relationships. Still, others opposed female preachers..and some still do. Sorry, but I don't think the majority rules in this! |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: |
I am suprised since you have never known a man that was not an adulteror and most have been abusers that you are not against men. Why wouldn't you be against adulterous abusers??
It is this very lack of trust of men that many homosexual women find incompatible with sex. Deep down it is hard to have sex when there is no trust. |
Because Larryjf, I realize that just because my experience has been bad, I cannot condemn a whole gender of God's creation because of it. I know that somewhere there are good, non-abusing, faithful men out there. I also know that the men I have known are only sinners, no better or worse than I am. All I can do is pray for them as I hope prayers are said for me. I let God handle them, as he handles me. As I told one abuser I knew, I don't have to try to hurt you or seek revenge. God will deal with you. All I have to do is sit back and let him work. I never have to think about it again, because I know that God will handle it and after he does, I think you would rather it have been me seeking revenge! 
RevJP, read the sermons by John Piper, and they helped me a great deal. I have alot to think about and pray about and more reading to do, but it made my confusion regarding this issue much clearer. I couldn't help but feel that it seems like an awfully difficult thing, to have to deny your feelings when you fall in love with someone whatever gender, as you naturally would want to be affectionate. But then I thought is it really any harder than trying to never commit any other sin? |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 375
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | RevJP, read the sermons by John Piper, and they helped me a great deal. I have alot to think about and pray about and more reading to do, but it made my confusion regarding this issue much clearer. I couldn't help but feel that it seems like an awfully difficult thing, to have to deny your feelings when you fall in love with someone whatever gender, as you naturally would want to be affectionate. But then I thought is it really any harder than trying to never commit any other sin? |
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Can someone please direct me to these John Piper sermons? Thanks. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| STABYC wrote: | | But then I thought is it really any harder than trying to never commit any other sin? |
I think not 
I found the part of the sermon where he entreats his congregation to welcome and embrace gay, but celibate, worshipers as part of the congregations particularly interesting, and quite a change from what most 'christians' have done in the past.
| Summertime wrote: | | Can someone please direct me to these John Piper sermons? Thanks. |
Hmmmm......  I have been referring you to these sermons and providing links for quite a while - I'm touched that you take such care in reading my posts.
Scroll up this thread just a little bit and you will see the links.
| Quote: | | At one point, indwelling students of scriptre favored slavery and keeping slavering in place |
This is another assumption, a false assumption to bolster a weak and already discounted argument. You assume that those who have professed to be 'Christians' are indwelt. I do not make that assumption and understand that only God truly knows.
My point was simple, the Holy Spirit aides in and provides interpretation of scripture. Slavery being condoned by anyone claiming to be a Chrisitian is not in concert with the whole of scripture, it is a derived doctrine, a convoluted belief by self-serving people in order to lend tenuous support to their power base.
| Quote: | | , but I don't think the majority rules in this! |
I'm not referring to, nor have ever referred to the 'majority'. I am speaking of the truth, and the Holy Spirit. You are promoting individual truth - each to his own interpretation. I am saying there is only the truth of God and it is given to us in His Word and He has given us His Spirit to assist in the proper interpretation. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5015
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: Just a thought! |
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Could I get RevJP, larryjf, & summertime to let me know who they are quoting?
Thanks, |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Nobby,
i either address my post to someone - in which case it is them that i am quoting, or i am quoting from the post directly before mine.
But i will try to be more careful about putting names with the quotes from now on. |
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