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franksinatra
Big Hamster
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 93
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 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Larryjf,
I think you made my point. Similar, although not exact, expressions can be applied to a place or a person. The fact that it is made to make a point rather than a provide a literal name is proved by its not being used again to refer to that person or place.
| Quote: | | is there a reason you are ignoring the verses that i brought up speaking to Jesus creating all things and how YHWH alone created everything?? |
Col 1:15 calls Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" and "the beginning of the creation by God." From the primary usage of the original Greek, one must conclude the Jesus is a creation. The Amplified Bible I noticed even referenced Prov 8:22 which confirms this. This allows for no contradiction in stating that by, through, or by means of him all things came into existence. It's obvious to the reader that its with the exception of himself, since you just read he was created. 9Just as God is excepted from the things subject to Jesus at 1 Cor 15:27, because you just read God subjected all things to Jesus.)
If you don't believe Prov 8 refers to Jesus as the created Master Worker, fine. I do. |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Col 1:15 calls Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" and "the beginning of the creation by God." From the primary usage of the original Greek, one must conclude the Jesus is a creation. |
One does not have to conclude that actually.
Firstborn is also a designation of inheritance. Jesus being firstborn designates that He has a greater share in the Father.
Also, it is clearly referring to Him being the firstborn from the dead if you read it in context with verse 18 -
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
And you still don't really answer the question in hand - if Jehovah said He made everything ALONE how could Jesus have even helped Him with it??
If Prov 8 is speaking about Jesus, then Prov 8:23 says He was from everlasting ...
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Besides, Proverbs 8 tells us who this is about - Wisdom personified, not Jesus...
Prov 8:1
Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? |
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franksinatra
Big Hamster
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. |
NIV: "I was appointed [fashioned per footnote] from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began."
You might check a good dictionary on "eternity" as this word in context (from the beginning) can and should be translated "from time indefinite" or an indefinitely long time ago.
But since you don't agree with those scholars that believe this is talking about Jesus, let's consider your understanding. Since wisdom is a cardinal attribute of God, how was it ever fashioned or created?
Secondly, why is it people understand the concept of something inanimate being spoken of figuratively as personified, but cannot grasp that this is exactly what Jesus did when writing about the holy spirit? |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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It is not that strange for a book on wisdom to personify wisdom.
Instead of starting new questions like "is the Holy Spirit a person" let's answer the one that is still outstanding...
The question still out for you to answer - if Jehovah said He made everything ALONE how could Jesus have even helped Him with it?? |
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