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| Is God just in condemning humans to eternal punishment? |
| yes |
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50% |
[ 4 ] |
| no |
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25% |
[ 2 ] |
| that's not fair of God |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| that's not a God of love |
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12% |
[ 1 ] |
| God is totally sovereign and He does whatever He pleases |
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12% |
[ 1 ] |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Phinehas wrote: | So, if the cookie jar owner/keeper has (1) instructed the children not to eat cookies until he says it's OK and (2) informed the children of what the punishment will be, the decision to bring on the punishment is that of the children.
Obviously, this argument applies only to those who have heard the cookie jar owner/keeper's instructions, however. |
The problem though, is that the children has never been told what's right and what's wrong, they've never been told what punishment means. The children can't diffrentiate between good and bad, as that's not something they've been able to experience until they've actually tasted the coockies.
Obviously this doesn't apply to those who has heard the coockie jar owner's instructions, as they couldn't comprehend those instructions.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah I forgot to answer this.
FFt wrote
| Quote: | | Explain why "God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live." |
It is the nature of God to do away with Sin his brightness totally takes away any darkness. How can darkness remain when the light appears? It cant it is impossible.
_________________
Christina |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | Quote: | I also asked a question earlier, on the questions of responsibility and accountability:
if a seven-year-old shot up a school with weapons he got from his parents, who would you arrest? |
I would not arrest anybody I do not have the authority to do so. |
Evasion.
| christina wrote: | | It is the nature of God to do away with Sin his brightness totally takes away any darkness. How can darkness remain when the light appears? It cant it is impossible. |
Is there scriptural evidence for an all-powerful god unable to control his power?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | | The problem though, is that the children has never been told what's right and what's wrong, they've never been told what punishment means. |
Before anyone jumps in with a smarmy "it's all in the bible!" comment:
a: Not everyone has read the bible. A lot of people don't even know it exists.
b: No rational person would start believing in a document so rife with errors unless said errors were being concealed.
Let's say, for instance, that the cookie jar owner has a sign posted above the cookie jar that says the following:
1. The sky is red.
2. If you take cookies from the cookie jar, you will be punished.
3. The doppler effect is a communist plot.
Would you think the owner to be of sound mind? Would a kid be convinced not to take a cookie?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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FFT your question doesnt make sense to me.
_________________
Christina |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Which one? There's totally four so far.
They're all yes or no questions, too.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Which one? There's totally 3 so far. |
| Quote: | | Is there scriptural evidence for an all-powerful god unable to control his power? |
Are there 2 others that i have not answered?
_________________
Christina |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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...
| christina wrote: | | It is the nature of God to do away with Sin his brightness totally takes away any darkness. How can darkness remain when the light appears? It cant it is impossible. |
This statement says "God has limits to his self-control." Therefore:
| FFT wrote: | | Is there scriptural evidence for an all-powerful god unable to control his power? |
The other *three* (I edited my post to reflect that there were four and I didn't know which one you were asking about) are:
| FFT wrote: | | if a seven-year-old shot up a school with weapons he got from his parents, who would you arrest? |
Which you attempted to evade, and
| FFT wrote: | | Would you think the owner to be of sound mind? Would a kid be convinced not to take a cookie? |
which were really directed at Phinehas anyway.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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plain_me
Big Goldfish
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 68
Location: Pembine, WI
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say first off, Phineas, the post you left on Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:48 am was great!
To FFT,
One of the arguments that I heard before was why have you put limits on God? The thing is, you need to understand who God is to realize that He is TOTALLY holy, and in so being, sin is not going to survive in His presence. Kinda like how I can't be in the water without getting wet. It's one of those "cause & effect" things. Which is why we need to be cleaansed from all unrighteousness before standing in His presence.
Yes, Christina did evade your question, but it was addressed by Phineas earlier.
Christina, please join me in the Trinity discussion room.
FFT, Inoticed that you had directed the question about the cookie jar at Phineas, but are you just arguing an obvious point that you see the validity of? It seems pretty self explanatory to me. You can hold to the argument that Fake does, and say that not everyone knows about the Bible, but those things that are not right, according to the Bible are clear in the human conscience. Obviously, there are consequences that you end up having to suffer based on your decisions, and they are clearly discernable. For example:If I run full force into that wall, it'll probably hurt. If I stick my finger in that socket, it'll shock the crap outta me. If I (and I'm being very broad here) "do something wrong" to that person I'll feel bad about it.
And that "something wrong" is evident mainly because no matter what society you live in, we've become accustom to not doing some things to others based on how they affect them, right? It all leads back to the fact that we all have been given a conscience that tells us what to & not to do.
_________________
...take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:11, 12 |
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plain_me
Big Goldfish
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 68
Location: Pembine, WI
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I may have been rambling in that last post, but I was sidetracked & I'm tired.
Tear me apart.
_________________
...take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:11, 12 |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Plain me writes,
Tear me apart.
Star replies,
 I think you have the gift of foresseing the inevitable no matter what you say
Ya weren't rambling 
_________________
God love ya In Him Starlaa |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| plain_me wrote: | | The thing is, you need to understand who God is to realize that He is TOTALLY holy, and in so being, sin is not going to survive in His presence. |
Again, that's saying God has a limit to the control over his power. Isn't he present everywhere at the same time anyway?
| plain_me wrote: | | Kinda like how I can't be in the water without getting wet. |
Bet you God could. Bet YOU could if you were wearing the right outfit, or in the right equipment. God can't do the same?
| plain_me wrote: | | It's one of those "cause & effect" things. |
No, it's more one of those "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I can't let this one slide" things.
| plain_me wrote: | | Which is why we need to be cleaansed from all unrighteousness before standing in His presence. |
Yes, because, despite loving us utterly, He has not seen fit to cleanse our unrighteousness. Despite sending his son to die TO CLEANSE OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
| plain_me wrote: | | Yes, Christina did evade your question, but it was addressed by Phineas earlier. |
Not unless he posted in invisble type.
| plain_me wrote: | | You can hold to the argument that Fake does, and say that not everyone knows about the Bible, but those things that are not right, according to the Bible are clear in the human conscience. |
Sorry, but this is utter crock too. For instance, I think it's perfectly fine to shoot wild rabbits on farms. Plenty of people would rather I die than a single rabbit on that field.
| plain_me wrote: | | If I (and I'm being very broad here) "do something wrong" to that person I'll feel bad about it. |
Plenty of people don't have that qualm. They're called "sociopaths." They have no conscience as it relates to other people.
| plain_me wrote: | | And that "something wrong" is evident mainly because no matter what society you live in, we've become accustom to not doing some things to others based on how they affect them, right? |
Plenty of societies have been perfectly fine with human sacrifice, which to us is definitely doing "something wrong" to somebody.
| plain_me wrote: | | It all leads back to the fact that we all have been given a conscience that tells us what to & not to do. |
Yep, yep. Sorry, calling BS on this.
| plain_me wrote: | | Tear me apart. |
Done.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| plain_me wrote: | | You can hold to the argument that Fake does, and say that not everyone knows about the Bible, but those things that are not right, according to the Bible are clear in the human conscience. |
I think you mis the pivotal part here.
A&E didn't know right from wrong, good from bad, naked from dressed, or anything for that matter until they ACTUALLY ATE of the forbidden fruit.
It wasn't until they ate of the forbidden fruit that they came to insight of what was good and what was not, it wasn't until they ate of the forbidden fruit that they started to cover themselves, it wasn't until they ate of the fruit that they experienced punishment.
If they've never experienced it, how can they understand it?
God's only purpouse to plant the tree there, was to have us eat of it, so he could punish us.
Your God is no more than the bad kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Dt:1:38: But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
Dt:1:39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
What children are we talking about here?? in what day??
no knowledge of good and evil?
Are these kids in the days of Adam? before eating the tree?
anybody?
Lone |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: God's judgement |
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There has been many good comments here, But others that concern me. As far as free will goes, My understanding is that we do have a free will, and at the same time we serve a soverign God. God did not make robots. The one thing we know for sure is that the Bible is the will of God. I will not debate anyones thelogy or philosphy. The truth of course is found in the Bible, and that is Jesus Christ. Actually, the whole Bible is centered on Jesus Christ, and the Bible is most bloody.
Yes, there is a real hell in eternity. Hell is mentioned 5 more times than heaven. The lake of fire is most literal. There is no such thing as purgatory. Therfore, the unbeliever has a big problem to deal with. So why not deal with it now. You never know one could drive home and get killed. The one who believes in universalism is way off. For example, Muslems do believe in a god that they call allah. This is a god of satan. Without Jesus Christ, there is no redemption. As a evengelist, I have a duty to snatch people out of darkness and put them into the light of our Lord Jesus Christ. The following is what takes place in the New Birth.
2 Cor. 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The New Birth is a new creation from above, the direct operation of the Word of God and the Spirit of God upon your life; changing your spirit completely when you truly repent and turn to God. This new creation is brought about in the following manner.
1. Recognize that you are a sinner, lost, without God, and without hope (Rom. 3:23).
2. Admit that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save you from sin by His own precious blood
3. Come to God, turning away from sin and confessing Jesus as your Lord, and you shall be born again. The Holy Spirit will then make you a new creature, cleansing you from ALL sin by the authority of the Word of God and by the blood of Christ which was shed to atone for your sin
4. Believe from your heart and confess with your mouth that God does forgive you of your sins and that you are born again.
Here are some scriptures which show you what you have in your authority to believe and to confess: Rom 10:9,10, John 1:12,13 John 6:37.
Oh what a basis for faith. There is no such thing as a person coming to Him and being cast out. Jesus said: him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Have a great day in the Lord, golfjack |
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