For MAGNUM PI - The Proble of Evil

Tiger75

Hi Magnum

(Sorry about the typing error in the topic)

It's taken a bit of time to go through your essay 'The Problem of Evil'.

As a Believer in the Triune God and Bible believing Christian ('Evangelical' - when correctly defined), I logically therefore disagree with its contents and so would like to write a reply. [A good read BTW]

This will take a bit of time (as obviously it did yourself [quote: "researching and analyzing countless books" ] )and also some help from you. Please don't think me condescending in asking the following:

1) Please can you define 'Evil' for me, ie your comprehension of what 'it' is.

2) Have you read the Bible cover to cover?

Waiting with interest,

Tiger75

[This message has been edited by Tiger75 (edited 10-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Tiger75 (edited 10-16-2002).]

Magnum PI

quote:
1) Please can you define 'Evil' for me, ie your comprehension of what 'it' is.

This is a rhetorical question. Besides, anyone can logically infer from my essay what my definition/comprehension of evil is.

As for reading the Bible, I read it one book at a time analyzing each one one at a time. It's more efficient to familiarize oneself with one book at a time. Reading it all would cause one to 'forget' other parts. Especially if you don't take the time to fully 'comprehend' what is being written/said.

Tiger75

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Originally posted by Magnum PI:
This is a rhetorical question. Besides, anyone can logically infer from my essay what my definition/comprehension of evil is.

Forgive me if I say I can't categorically.

You have gone to lengths to describe 'horrific' events and 'determined' they have been the result of evil. You have then said that if 'God is omnibenevolent' and He is the source of these events He must be Evil - hence proof by contradiction and God is not God etc etc. There is a realm of 'perception' here not logical definitions.

I am sure we would both agree that Adolf Hitler was an 'Evil' man but his dog didn't think so! (He 'loved' his dog.)

Have a go and define Evil for me 'logically'.

[This message has been edited by Tiger75 (edited 10-23-2002).]

Magnum PI

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Originally posted by Tiger75:
I am sure we would both agree that Adolf Hitler was an 'Evil' man but his dog didn't think so!

His dog? Please...how do you know what his dog 'thought' about Hitler?

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Have a go and define Evil for me 'logically'.

Yeah, I knew you weren't going to be able to 'get it' on your own. Though my essay is explicitly clear on it, nevertheless...I will humor your rhetorical question.

Ever read Jeffrey Russel's 'The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Primitive Christianity'? He gives a 'logical' definition of evil that I agree with. I have the book at home and will provide that definition when I get the chance.

Until then...don't forget to feed Hitler's dog. I'm sure it can tell you what it 'thinks' would be a great meal after all these years of eating...well, you know.

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 10-23-2002).]

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger75:
Thought you might have had the 'Evil' definition to mind - in your own mind in fact.

Well of course, but for the purposes of a legitimate debate I'd rather give a full and complete answer than a short one. Which is, of course, a short answer for which I would think of things to add later. Then again, that really wouldn't do us any good for the purpose/course of a debate, now would it? Therefore, I found a complete answer that is equal to my own thoughts. Fair enough?

From the aforementioned book:

"Evil is never abstract. It must always be understood in terms of the suffering of an individual."

"Evil is as people have perceived it."

"Consequently we must consider evil as perceived immediatley, directly, and existentially, rather than defined categorically."

"The perception of evil is a direct, immediate experience of something done to an individual. You experience immediately evil done to you; by empathy you experience directly evil done to those you love, to your friends and neighbors, or even to those you do not know personally at all. Evil is not an abstration."

"From the basic perception of individual evil you extrapolate to the general, moving from the realm of experience ot the realm of conscious construction and conceptualization."

"Evil is sometimes deliberately malicious. Sometimes it is the product of rationalization or weakness."

"Evil is meaningless, senseless destruction. Evil destroys and does not build; it rips and it does not mend; it cuts and it does not bind. It strives always and everwhere to annihilate, to turn to nothing. To take all being and render it nothing is the heart of evil."

MPI

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 10-23-2002).]

Tiger75

quote:
Originally posted by Magnum PI:
His dog? Please...how do you know what his dog 'thought' about Hitler?

I asked for that! Your reply was expected. Just wanted to see how seriously you wanted to take the debate/discussion.

Thought you might have had the 'Evil' definition to mind - in your own mind in fact. Will await however for you to humour me and then we'll look at wether God can be the 'author' of Evil.

Tiger75

Good Morning. (Well is here in England, anyway

)

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger75:
Forgive me if I say I can't categorically.

Define evil that was!

quote:
Originally posted by Magnum PI:
Yeah, I knew you weren't going to be able to 'get it' on your own. Though my essay is explicitly clear on it, nevertheless...I will humor your rhetorical question.

Your source quote on Evil's definition:

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Originally posted by Magnum PI:
"Consequently we must consider evil as perceived immediatley, directly, and existentially, rather than defined categorically."

Glad your source author agrees with me!

[This message has been edited by Tiger75 (edited 10-24-2002).]

Tiger75

Magnum, I am nearing a reply to your essay. Let me set out what I plan to achieve and the steps I will take.

Firstly

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Originally posted by Magnum PI:
The Bible, being one of the greatest works of humankind, is in my learned opinion merely a fictional story of an alleged supreme being based on a loosely factual account of what humankind once was.

Show that it is more than a reasonable assumption to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired.

Secondly

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Originally posted by Magnum PI:
Conceived, defined and believed to exist is God, an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being that created and sustains this world with all its creatures upon it and the universe it is within.

Show what the Bible teaches about God and His attributes.

Thirdly

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Originally posted by Magnum PI:
If God really exists, why is there so much evil in this world?

Show where Evil comes from and 'its' purpose.

Fourthly

Make some general comments on other points of interest arising from your Essay.

Time Span

As you can see this wont be a short task so would ask for your patience. I will post in sections as a result.

Thanks

Tiger

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger75:
Let me set out what I plan to achieve and the steps I will take.

Show that it is more than a reasonable assumption to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired.

This I'd really like to see. For centuries no one has been able to do this, but you imply you can. Okay...take your best shot!

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Show what the Bible teaches about God and His attributes.

That's a given so it would be pointless to do this. Your choice though...

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Show where Evil comes from and 'its' purpose.

I already did that in my essay.

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Make some general comments on other points of interest arising from your Essay.

I look forward to them.

MPI

Magnum PI

Tiger....come out, come out, wherever you are!

Whatever happened to that reply/commentary on my essay?

MPI

Tiger75

Hi MPI

Soz, been otherwise occupied. Also I debated with myself (if one can do that) to what avail it would be.

God is, period. That's not open to debate.

His ways are beyond finding out so who am I to question Him with my limited knowledge.

He has revealed Himself through His 'written word' the Bible which I accept by faith.

So that's about it really.

Tiger

Van

If the problem of evil is framed as relating to the perception of individuals or an individual person, then the problem of evil disappears.

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger75:
Soz, been otherwise occupied. Also I debated with myself (if one can do that) to what avail it would be.

Nice excuse...considering you've been active in other threads debating.

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God is, period.

Well, if your so absolutely sure then prove it! After all, to make such a statement of fact you must have the facts to back it up, right! Or is this just yet another one of those infamous excuses religious folk use to mask their denial and inability to even rationalize why it is they even believe in the first place!?!

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That's not open to debate.

It most certainly is and has been for centuries!

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His ways are beyond finding out so who am I to question Him with my limited knowledge.

You don't even know if it is a "Him". For all you know God could be a "Her" or an "It".

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He has revealed Himself through His 'written word'

"He" did not write the Bible, man did! Best get that one straight Tiger!

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the Bible which I accept by faith.

You say faith, I say ignorance. Because that is all faith is when it comes to religious dogma...the suspension of disbelief replaced with (ignorance, cognitive dissonance, etc.) faith.

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So that's about it really.

Yeah...that's it alright. You don't have a good argument in rebuttal so you just stick your nose in the air saying "There is a God, PERIOD" and walk away. Not very impressive Tiger...not impressive at all!

MPI

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by Van:
If the problem of evil is framed as relating to the perception of individuals or an individual person, then the problem of evil disappears.

If God's existence is framed as relating to the perception of individuals or an individual person, then God's existence disappears.

Tiger75

MPI

Why should I try and rationalise what may not be rational? Why should I use empirical evidence to substantiate that which transcends all scientific reason.

Why should I use human reason as a starting point when it is imperfect to begin with?

Tiger