Understanding Revelation 3:14

Van · Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject: Understanding Revelation 3:14

Understanding Revelation 3:14

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:” (Revelation 3:14, NASB)

First, the Amen, the true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, is the risen Lord Jesus. So what does the name or title or attribute of “the Amen” mean? In 2 Corinthians 1:20 again Jesus is referred to as “our Amen”. Now Amen is an expression of absolute trust of confidence in something. Thus if we ask in prayer and close with Amen, we are saying we believe and trust that God will hear our prayers and respond according to His will. But I do not think that is John’s idea here, that Jesus is the object of our trust and confidence. Might be, but I do not think so. I think the idea is that Jesus is how we became right with God, no longer separated by our sin for he is our righteousness. I think this was also the idea behind what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 1:20 – “by Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us”. Paul brought the gospel – the meaning of “through us” and our salvation is to the glory of God, and we were made right by our Amen, Jesus Christ.

The faithful and true Witness begs the question, witness of what? Again, my answer is God Almighty, John 17:3-4.

The beginning of the creation of God could refer to God’s initial creation of the heavens and the earth. But this seems lame because the Word created all things in the beginning and it is unlikely that we are being taught the pre-incarnate Jesus created Himself.
What then? Jesus was the first born of all creation, referring to the fact that He was the beginning of all the adopted sons of God, the church, believers resurrected to eternal life with God. This idea matches Revelation 1:5, where after mentioning that Jesus is ‘the faithful witness” John adds “the first born from the dead. So the parallel construction suggests that the first born from the dead and the beginning of the creation of God are the same attribute of Jesus. This also matches the thoughts expressed by Paul in Colossians 1:15-18.

MoJo · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:06 am Post subject:

The word Amen besides being an assertion and agreement to what has been said, when used as a noun means final word or action. It is used extensively in Duet: 27. Moses laid out God's commandments and the people said amen, aptly denoting both meanings in that God's law was final and inarguable and that the people understood this and were agreeing to it. The name "Amen" as a pronoun then takes on the meaning that Jesus is the final word and action and his final act was to die, sealing the contract in full understanding and consent. (John 17:4 .......I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. )

During his life on earth, Jesus was the faithful and true witness. Isaiah 55:4 "Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people."

Jesus is called the beginning and the ending and Amen is the ending. In Rev 3:14 we see the order of his names. The last name (Amen) is given first, denoting the final action, and then the middle name (Witness)denoting what happened before the ending. What can it therefore be said about "the Beginning of the creation of God." The end (Amen) can't also mean the beginning and the middle, otherwise the scripture might just as well have stopped at the name Amen. So what is the beginning?

IMHO, I think this scripture does rightly speak to the fact that Jesus has been around for the beginning, the middle and the end in its natural order.

Van · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: God made Everything

God made everything, yet that means God did not make himself. The Word made everything yet that means the Word did not make Himself or God. The only logical solution is the Word is God, then we have God, the Word, made everything.

I certainly accept that all, everything, etc only means all that the author had in view, and so extrapolations to include stuff not in view is faulty analysis. But in this verse, and I do not know what others argued, but I argued that all refered to all in Adam, and all in Christ, two separate groups.

Word order: Rev. 1:5 - faithful witness, first born from the dead, ruler of the kings of the earth. Thus we have Jesus during his life presenting the perfect image of His Father, we have Jesus resurrected, the beginning of the creation of God, and Jesus, King of Kings ruling from David's throne in the milennial kingdom on earth.

Revelation 3:14 we have the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. Thus we have Jesus, the Righeousness of God foretold as the Messiah, we have Jesus the faithful witness presenting the perfect represention of God, we have Jesus resurrected, the first born from the dead. A perfect match. Amen can come at the beginning of a statement, translated as verily or truly and well as at the end.

MoJo · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:27 am Post subject:

First of all, I think it's necessary to get our references to God straight. From now on I will use the names Jesus and Father to denote who I am speaking about.

1 Cor 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith All things are put under him, it is manifested that he is excepted which did put all things under him."

The he referred to in this scripture is the Father. The Father has put all things under Jesus' feet except himself. I don't know how this can be misunderstood. By implication there was a time when Jesus didn't have all things under him until the Father put all things under him.

So we go to John 1:3 and see all things were made by Jesus, excepting of course, that he did not make himself or his Father as 1 Cor 15:27 tells us.
To me, this just makes perfect sense, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Van · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject:

Now lets turn to 1 Corinthians 15:27. For He (Jesus) has put all things in subjection under His (Jesus) feet. But when He (Jesus) says "All things are put in subjection" it is evident that He (Father) is excepted who (Father) put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). First, putting all things in subjection is not talking about creation. So the only application is in the understanding that "all things" does not necessarily include all things. For example, all created things does not include any and all manifestions of Yahweh, because Yahweh was not created. And on this point, all things is limited to the author's intended scope, we agree. So lets return to John 1:3, all things came into being by Him indicates everything created came into being by the Word. Not included are all things never created, such as the Word.

Based on word order and parallel construction, the first born from the dead is the meaning of the beginning of the creation of God. John was saying the same thing Paul was saying in Colossians 3:18 "... and He (Jesus) is the beginning, the first born from the dead.

The title of "Amen" made referrence to the foretold Messiah, who is called the righteousness of God. See Jeremiah 23:6 for example. The Greek word translated Amen comes from a Hebrew word transliterated as Amon which means truth. Truth is a title or attribute of God, as in "the God of Truth (transliterated contraction of Amon). In summary, see Psalm 31:5 where the God of Truth ransoms or redeems David. And just who did that? Jesus, our Amen.

MoJo · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject:

I would like to break down your last post into more manageable sections and reach a consensus on meaning on parts of the scriptures we are using.

The first area of disagreement is in 1 Cor 15:27

Mojo wrote:

Van · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject:

I base my understanding on the passage. Jesus is the one who reigns during the millienial kingdom. Therefore, when He, Jesus, delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His (Jesus) enemies under His (Jesus) feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Perhaps others would care to explain this passage. Who knows, perhaps my view is in error.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

This may simplify the who's who debate. Verify this translation using Strong's Exhaustive Concordance if you're doubtful. At Matthew 22:43, Jesus himself clarifies that he was David's (my) "Lord."

"The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Proverbs 8, describes Jehovah's first creation. Can you discern who it is? If you think its wisdom, think again. Wisdom is a cardinal attribute of Jehovah and it therefore was not created. Any attempts to change the unambiguous meaning of Rev 3:14 or Col 1:15 will only result in making the Bible's truths impossible to understand. Jesus stated: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

Listen to the one who should know. The "only true God" is the Father. He is the head of Christ, his Creator, God, the one Jesus worships. (1 Cor 3:23; 11:3; 15:28; Matt 4:10)

The substitution of God's name in Bible translations with "LORD" served Satan's purpose to confuse the identity of the true God. How saddened Jesus must be to see people attempting to give to him what rightly belongs to God.

Van · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:14 pm Post subject:

Psalm 110:1 "...Yahweh says to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." Clearly God the Father is saying to the preincarnate Jesus, the Word, sit at my right hand until I (Yahweh) make your (Jesus) enemies a footstool. See Luke 20:41-44, Hebrews 10:13. So then why do I not think 1 Corinthians 15:27 is refering to the same thing? One passages say Yahweh will make Christ's enemies a footstool, and the other says someone put all things in subjection except that Yahweh is not put in subjection. Therefore Christ is the one putting in 1 Corinthians, not Yahweh.

So by the numbers, Yahweh put all things in subjection to Christ in that He gave to Christ the power and authority to put all things in subjection, except of course Yahweh is not included. So how did Yahweh make Christ's enemies a footstool? By giving Christ the power and authority to put all things in subjection, and this power and authority will be unleashed at Christ's second coming.

Secondly, wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 is not Christ. While Christ is the revelation of God's wisdom (1 Cor. 1:24) and possesses wisdom (Col. 2:3) it is an unwarrented assumption to assert that Christ is revealed here in Proverbs 8 rather than an attribute of God.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Van · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:59 pm Post subject:

I agree the meaning is obvious. The one, God, who put all things in subjection to Christ is excepted, but everything else Christ has subjected and put under his feet.