Faith and the Trinity

Star · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:04 am Post subject:

Nobby says,

The irony of the subject, is that none of us really know.
Yet we argue on.

Star says Laughing

I SO know this is true, even in my case, He is so great! I grapple with alot myself but I never considered it an issue at all.

When I "get" the "love" part of the doctrine perfect I'll have time to conceptualize these things lol! Laughing

That doesnt leave me much time lol!

In Him

Star

MoJo · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:43 pm Post subject:

Great post, Diver. During my first year on these boards I devoted most of my time to studying this and debating against the trinity. What is currently revealed to us concerning this takes us only so far with no absolute definitive proof for or against the trinity or for or against "Oneness" as some others believe. As far as I'm concerned, the only reasonable attitude to take then is to put our full trust and confidence in Jesus' words regarding his Father as opposed to using our own so-called wisdom. Scripturally, the pre-existence of Christ can be proven, that he is called God can be proven, but the dilemna comes in the scriptures of Isaiah which prove a stumbling block to the exact nature of God. I have not encountered anyone who has new revelation on this and so I have to conclude the wisest course is to say no more or less than that Jesus says he has a Father who is greater than him. Very Happy

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Most of this stems from the interpretation you place on the words written. I do not see one scripture that indicates Jesus was God or considered Himself equal to the Father. Nor do I see any scriptures that claim there is a triune God John1:1 included. Mojo if you did not believe in a triune God in the beginning what made you change your mind. Do you believe others more then you believe in yourself? When I started this there was nothing anywhere that was against the trinity. Today more and more I see proof that the doctrine of the trinity is false. There is no doubt in my mind. I have no fear that I will be punished for claiming the truth.

Robbo · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Trinity

James1-26 · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:22 pm Post subject:

You know when I started reading page 1 of this thread I could hardly believe the arrogance. RevJP, I am sorry to say that your arrogance on this one issue of the "trinity" is stunning to say the least. Your statements tell the tale, with such expressions as "I, nor anyone else is trying to force you to believe anything, we are simply expressing the truth of scripture. It is your choice to accept God's Word or not." Confused or disgusted

Who are you to determine who among us is expressing absolute truth and accepting God's Word or not??? As far as I know, you are human.....so you have nothing on anyone here. "Personally, I am a touch offended by your post." <<< You are offended? But you care nothing about offending your brothers and sisters in Christ here. No, you don't call your brothers and sisters fools, but you carefully word your statements so that taking the opposite point of view would be sinful, calling God a liar, or be foolish, as though your word is final and abosolute. You speak with authority like Christ, but yet have been given none.

Proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.
3 Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend.

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Acts 3:11 'As the man stood there clinging to Peter and John, the whole crowd rushed over to them excitedly in Solomon's Portico. When Peter saw this, he addressed the people as follows: Fellow Israelites, why does this surpirse you? Why do you stare at us as if we had made this man walk by some power or holiness of our own? The God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Servant Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned in Pilate's presence when Pilate was ready to release him. You disowned the Holy and Just One and preferred instead to be granted the release of a murderer. You put to death the Author of life. BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, AND WE ARE HIS WITNESSES.

Yet I know, my brothers, that you acted out of ignorance, just as your leaders did. God has brought to fulfillment by this means what he announced long ago through all the prophets; that his Messiah would suffer. Therefore, reform your lives! Turn to God, that your sins may be wiped away!'

The passages in the book of Acts leave very little doubt what these Jewish men believed. They believed as I believe that Jesus was God's servant and was sent to fulfull what was prophesied in the Old Testament.
That my friends is exactly what Jesus did. There is no argument here, what the Bible says is true.

diver · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:33 am Post subject: let's give this a try...

After reading more posts on this topic, which goes back to more than 7 months ago, I felt a need to share a bit more. Some of you brought up some really interesting points and I saw strong cases for both sides. I did notice that it also got pretty heated at times when emotions got in the way. But all in all I was glad to have read them.

As I stated before, I did not believe in the trinity for the first 20 years of my Christian life and I disputed with “Trinitarians” more times than I care to admit. I haven’t completely changed my stand, but I can relate and understand those who believe in the triune God. I do believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as most of you out there do also. I do admit it is hard for me to understand the 3-in-oneness of it all. But as Rev JP wrote back in May in response to one of Bridget’s post, “The bible tells us that our intelligence is insufficient to understand God fully, or to fathom His ways.” I firmly believe that, as we all should. God is all knowing and we are not. Our minds are limited to certain levels of understanding. There are just some spiritual truths that we will never fully understand. And that’s okay. 1 Cor 13:12a says…for now we see through a glass darkly…I believe God designed it that way so we do not lose sight of the importance of humility – towards Him and one another.

I believe there are a few areas where it can be detrimental (to our spiritual walk and maturity) for us to be so absolute about our belief and this subject is one of them. Why do I say this? Because I have personally seen where this subject/discussion have resulted in devastating a fellow believer’s spiritual walk. You may say well, the reason was their belief or faith wasn’t genuine or firmly rooted. It can easily happen, especially to the young and vulnerable in Christ. When we become so strongly opposed to another’s belief about the triune God, to the point where we become intolerant, please be careful. We need to examine ourselves spiritually once in awhile, it can be a very joyful time and enlightening as well. We are instructed to do this in 2 Cor 13:5. And in 1 Pet 5:5b it says: we are to be subject one to another, and clothed with humility, for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Don’t get me wrong, in most all cases it is only right for us to be convinced about the things of God. After all, it does say in James that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. But the subject matter there is how to receive wisdom, not the deity of Christ.

Star quoted Nobby regarding this issue, saying: The irony of the subject, is that none of us really know.
Yet we argue on. I know there are some out there that are sure they know that they know that they know and no one can convince them otherwise. But let’s not express our belief in such a way that it becomes a personal attack on another believer. Rom 14:19.

I have known many Christians who believe in the trinity and those who do not, that have vibrant and genuine relationship with God. Their walk is unquestionable, evidenced by their fruit, more specifically the love of God that emanates from within. And that’s what it’s all about isn’t it. Love. And God’s love easily overlooks (probably laughs at) our differences concerning this issue, and He continues to shower us with more love, grace, and mercy we do not deserve. We need to do the same for one another. Remember, there’s power in humility. James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

You all are God’s Best Surprised

Diver

Notice my new aviatar (image thingy) I figured this is much closer to a "diver" than the Mario face I had before Razz

Star · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:20 am Post subject:

Diver, I completely agree, excellent post! I used to wrestle with the verse, "If you think you know anything you know NOT as you ought". I think in our "figuring it all out" in the sense we use what we know to exclude others is as knowledge that puffs up, but love that surpasses knowledge edifies and binds together.

Once and awhile were all guilty of dabbling in an argument. But I always loved that the disciples of the Lord were not shown as knowing it all in their walks, but they "discussed these things amongst themselves". What I don't agree with is the desire to send fire down from heaven because we regard someone an enemy over the stupidest stuff (like when they dont recieve what we have might think we know.

Sometimes in the back of my mind, I believe we are each given a part of the whole to come to the table and share, but what is tested is how we see another if they dont agree with us, or how we use what we have recieved. If what we think we know is end all would contradict knowing something yet having not love and being nothing, because that possibility exists. But I think we walk through this to be better ministers of Jesus Christ and learn from our own failings. From these we learn of His patience toward us as we come into the realization and humble place of knowing that we can be like such brute beasts before Him.

What then makes us any different from Pharisees or sadducess dividing over truths because neither "got it" yet their divisions were over interpretations. In this way they made excuses to hate the other which set aside Gods command and justified themselves in what they thought they knew. Walking in this way can be seen as honoring Him with our lips but our hearts are far from Him or His desire for us to walk in love.

Its so easy to be led astray from the simplicity of devotion to Christ when we desire to be of some kind of reputation, or to be seen as "great" among others, may this too be crucified in our flesh.

Excellent post Diver I was so so blessed and really heard your post in myself, thanks so much for that good word. Very Happy

P.S and I think your avatar really does suit a " Laughing

diver" except that I see sand and not a cliff, and I hope you dont dive off into the shallow end Wink

In Him

Starlaa

diver · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:52 am Post subject: ministry

Star,
You're too kind. I believe you have found your ministry within this online bible discussion group. You are a blessing to me as well as many others. As for my new avatar, if you look really hard, you can see me under the warm tropical waters swimming with the fish. Laughing

There's a hidden coral reef beneath all that. 8)
Diver

Star · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:17 pm Post subject:

lol! Oh Gees! I was thinking "diver" as in diving boards Rolling Eyes

But I now I can see ya with the clown fishes off to the right, how blind am I? Laughing

You were under water (Duhhh lol!)

Thanks for your kind words, you always have an edifying word for someone, God bless ya Diver Very Happy

In Him

Starlaa

MoJo · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:51 pm Post subject:

Excellent posts, diver and Star. I completely agree that we should not allow this topic to cause so much strife. Very Happy

Star · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject:

MoJo's another "peacekeeper" Very Happy

Love can overlook alot Wink

In Him

Starlaa

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

I understand very well. You cannot believe in the words of the Bible. You are afraid to believe what the Bible says because there's so much controversy. Have you ever stopped to think why there's so much controversy or who is fueling the fire. The quotes I post here are mainly from the Bible. I realize much of these books were edited but we can see who and what we are. Jesus was a Jew, it gives his genealogy in Chapter one of Matthew and He descends back to Abraham. The things you say I should not believe are all written down for anyone to read. So I am assuming you do not believe what is written in the Bible.
All Jews believe in One God, the God of Israel, that would include all twelve apostles and the Apostle Paul. In the course of 2000 years we have changed all that was taught here and we now have gone full circle. God brought Abraham from among his kinsmen who were pagen to believe in Him and today we have gone back to a belief in the Pagen faith.