Faith and the Trinity

shepreach · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 488 Location: ga

hi bridget! glad you're back. i missed you.

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

John 5,19-30
"I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.
Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

God gave authority to Jesus.
Jesus is our lord, but he is not Our Creator.

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Hi Shepreach, So glad to finally be back. I'm glad to see that Christina and I are in total agreement here. I also do not believe Jesus is a God. He never claimed to be. I have posted all these things before to no avail, but perhaps between us we can make a dent in this false doctrine.

Star · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:56 pm Post subject:

I'm already converted gals Laughing

I agree with you both.

In Him

Star Very Happy

Holywind · Goldfish Joined: 25 Jul 2004 Posts: 61

Christina, Bridget,and Star Rolling Eyes

You are in agreement that Jesus is NOT our CREATOR nor is He GOD! Shocked

Sounds like you need to spend more time reading the Bible instead of books about the Bible!!! Razz

Watchout! There's a serpent "w-hissssspering" in your ear, saying the same thing to you that he said to Eve in the garden . . . "God didn't really mean what He said when He said that . . ." #evil

Jesus said, "He that has seen me has seen the Father" "I and my Father are ONE" Very Happy

The apostle Paul, chosen personally by Jesus to bring the Good News to the Gentiles, writes ". . . our GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST" Very Happy

John writes, "In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD, the same was in the beginning with God. And WITHOUT HIM (the Word) was not ANYTHING MADE that is made.
In Him was LIFE (making Him the LIVING WORD) and the LIFE (Living Word) was the "Enlightenment" of men. Very Happy

It goes on to say, "And the WORD became (took on the form of) FLESH and dwelt among us, and we beheld Him as of the only begotten of the Father, full of graciousness and TRUTH." Very Happy

That's pretty plain spoken on God's part. Very Happy

Star · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:01 am Post subject:

HolyWind,

Ofcourse we can argue the same arguments because I could provide the same, but lets keep this simple, if one has the Son they have the Father, so whether we believe differently on these things or that we do not fully understand it all. We have the Lord Jesus Christ who is the exact representation of His likeness, who himself shared in our humanity and LEARNED OBEDIENCE through His sufferings.

The trinity doctrine is the thing that gets me unerved because there is no such word in scripture, and I do not believe in it because encompassed within a manmade doctrine are flaws as well.

Do I believe in God the Father? YES, Do I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God? Yes He is The Lord. Do I believe in the Holy Spirit? Yes. But not God being three. The Lord our God is ONE GOD.

But it really does not have to be an argument because if one has the Son he has the Father also.

But I must agree with you on the verse you shared I'm aware that it says this, its understanding it as clearly as I would like to, thats why I am careful to say what I do believe.

To me personally I do not understand manmade titles and all that encompasses them and one quarter of the "intellectual debates" I catch wind of really put me off of the subject altogether. An argument can be made for both sides of it but its 50/50 with me I could teeter either way but not within the the trinity theory at all. The threeness of God should not be argued nor the word trinity be used, sticking with scripture only for me.

But either way see me seeing Christ and the Father as one and the one who is the very image of God, and indeed if He was after the Spirit the very image of God in that oneness of Spirit one would have to say by it that the reflection of the Father was one in Him. To me they are One, so I could be saying the very thing you are yet differently see?

In Him

Star

Star · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:19 am Post subject:

I felt led to put something in Here that might clarify why I see this just in short...

I see Jesus saying in Revelation, "I AM THE BEGINING" (not in Genesis but IS Jesus Christ)

Now use Johns words (((IN))) "THE BEGINNING" ( IN Jesus Christ) WAS "THE WORD" and THE WORD was GOD and was with God

The same was IN THE BEGINNING (IN Jesus Christ) with God.

Gods intention to us Christward, His forethought manifesting in Christ WHO IS The Truth validating the scriptures which of Him and testified of Jesus Christ (Which is the SPIRIT of prophecy). We were CREATED IN HIM, I don't see that as not being truth.

So Jesus having the Word (God) in Him reflected the exact likeness of God in oneness with Him. So He says He who has seen me Has seen the Father.

The True Beginning IS Jesus Christ He is the one foretold of by God in scripture which bare record of the word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Thats just a bit on what I see

P.S The Serpent worked behind the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which typed the law... Besides did you know that God Himself HISSES? Yeah look it up Very Happy

(I gave you a keyword use it Laughing

) The Holy Spirit has a CLOVEN TONGUE too Wink

In Him

Star

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

Rev-4,2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."

Rev-5
Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

John 8,13-2
The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

Jesus clearly states "testimony of two men"
Jesus never claims to be GOD

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

STAR
Excellent post! Very Happy

Star · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:09 am Post subject:

Awwwww

thanks Christina (we are just on the same thought patern here Laughing

)

We are not through yet! #2gunfire

In Him

Star

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Hi Holywind, Glad to see so many new members here since I've been gone. Christina and Star posted good scriptures. I have posted so many times on the prologue to the gospel of John it makes my head spin.
Let me just put something before you. The Bible tells us that Mary was the mother of Jesus, yes? From what I have researched, Mary was probably around 14 years of age when God's messenger appeared before her and told her she would bring God's son into the world. This story is one of the most inspiring stories in the Bible. Here we have a very young girl going around doing her chores, living her life as a young girl from a Jewish family. In her day, young girls had arranged marriages and in this case she was espoused to Joseph an old man in his twenties.
Think what having a baby that didn't belong to Joseph would mean to her. It would have meant certain deathby stoning. She didn't know God spoke to Joseph. She accepted it with true faith, love but most of all true trust in God. Are you now going to tell me, this child Mary carried was the God who sent the messenger to tell her she would bear a child? We are talking about reality here, although the times and traditions were different this was real life. Our God was not born He was, and He will not die.

diver · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:44 pm Post subject: Trinity

For about 20 years I was convinced that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God. But in recent years I have come to question this belief. I used to debate (many were heated) with those who believe in the trinity. I no longer debate this issue, because more often than not, it never led to anything but division, confusion, and anger. I would use the following and many other verses to try to prove this point.

Concerning the resurrection, the bible says God raised Jesus from the dead. The scriptures doesn't say Jesus raised himself up from the dead. Act 4:10, Acts 13:30, Rom 4:24, Rom 8:11, Rom 10:9, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:20, Col 2:12 It also doesn’t say anywhere that he arose from the dead. God, raised his Son, Jesus, from the dead.

In Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19 Jesus said: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except one, God” If Jesus is God, he probably would not have objected to being called good.

He also said “…my Father is greater than I”: in John 14:28

The works that I do you shall do also; and greater works than these shall you do because I go unto my Father…John 14:12…If Jesus is God, then he was saying we can do greater works than God – which is impossible, the creation can never do greater works than the creator. Many in authority believe the greater works that Jesus was speaking of was the future ability to lead anyone to the new birth. He was speaking of the future because his death (complete sacrifice) is what made the new birth possible.

Yes, in the 3rd chapter of John, Jesus spoke about being born again to Nicodemus, but he was not speaking of the present. Noticed that it does not say Nicodemus got born again that day. No one experienced the new birth until after the Ascension of Jesus, 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3) The apostles received the holy spirit 50 days (Day of Pentecost) after the resurrection. Moments before Jesus ascended, he told the disciples: “You shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now”…which turned out to be 10 days later.

In John 20:17, Jesus said: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”. If he is God, why would he say “My God”

The bible also says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, Col 3:1, Heb 10:12, Heb 12:2. In Acts 7:56, he is standing on the right hand of God
This begs the question, If Jesus is God, how can he sit or stand at his own right hand?

With that being said, there are also scriptures that strongly support that Jesus is God. When I get the opportunity, the first thing that I would ask God (if there is still a need at that point) is for a clear explanation of the deity of Jesus.

Like I said, I no longer debate this issue because it’s no longer an issue for me, at least. I have the utmost respect for those who believe in the trinity. I have come to believe that in God’s eyes, this issue is not a big deal to Him, although it is to most Christians. I like what Star said in an earlier post when she said if you have God, you have the Son. I also like what Nobby said on one of his post…I am a Christian first not a Trinitarian.

I stand in awe of what Jesus accomplished in the cross, which we don’t fully comprehend and I love God with all my heart. You may call me strange, confused, or totally out in left field, but I pray and talk to both Jesus and God. What matters to me is that they are heard, this I know.

I/H,
Diver Smile

Nobby · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:37 am Post subject:

Diver, thank you for such a wonderful post. I have thought this for quite sometime. There is so some much division because of different belief's of the subject of Trinity. The irony of the subject, is that none of us really know.
Yet we argue on. Very Happy

Star · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:53 am Post subject:

Diver says,

I like what Star said in an earlier post when she said if you have God, you have the Son. I also like what Nobby said on one of his post…I am a Christian first not a Trinitarian.

Star replies,

(cough cough... ut um) Laughing

But it really does not have to be an argument because if one HAS THE SON he has the Father also.

Diver my brother, ya misquoted me there kiddo Laughing

I'm being a bugger for details lol! Laughing

I had to affectionately bust on you for that Wink

I saftely nestle in the very clear fact that I have THE SON because of the fact that one who has the Son has the Father, besides I see so many beautiful places where the treasures of Him are buried in the scriptures and they just keep growing.

But certainly for me there is no real argument here to divide over, there are obscure passages and very clear passages and ones that make you scratch your head lol! I love scratching my head nowadays, keeps my thoughts going up up and away Mr. Green

God bless ya Diver

In Him

Star