Faith and the Trinity

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Is not the belief in our triune God, one of the ultimate expressions of faith?

Does the bible teach the trinity? Most certainly. It tells us that Christ was there at the beginning of our existence, in fact that our creation was through Him. The Holy Spirit was there, roaming upon the waters...

The Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit. All spoken about in scriptures, inextricably linked as God, the One True God.

Jesus - fully human, fully God. We cannot deny it's scriptural truth - yet we cannot fully fathom its possibility. Corinthians states the glory of the unfathomable, mysterious, Almighty God - it tells us that we cannot know all things of Him, that we are incapable of understanding His true nature - and yet many of us deny that nature because we cannot understand it. - what logic is this Question

We cannot understand fully the trinity, we can understand that it is truth, because too much biblical evidence clearly demonstrates its truth, but we lack the divine intellect to comprehend it - so what does that leave us with? Denial of that which we are told by the Word is true, or acceptance by faith that the concepts we cannot understand are true?

I vote for faith, as the wisdom of man is sorely lacking when it comes to things of God and it has never done anything to save us from our earned demise - whereas faith, in the Son, the Father, and the Spirit have spared us our lives, eternally.
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MoJo · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:41 am Post subject:

Rev JP

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Respectfully Mojo, you are completely out of line. I in NO WAY questioned yours, or anyone else's faith. I simply stated that acceptance of the trinity in light of our inability to fully comprehend its whys and wherefor's is an act of faith - an ultimate act of faith.

Is there scriptural evidence which leads us to know the trinity as truth? Absolutely. Did I say there was more on one side than the other? I do not believe I did.

Personally, I am a touch offended by your post. I am speaking of faith, not condemning anyone for thier belief's for disbelief's - if you wish to see conspiracy and innuendo in what I write, then kindly keep it to yourself. I have stated repeatedly on this site and our sister sites that I do not insinuate. If I want to say something, I say it, therefore I do not appreciate your ascribing imagined wrongs upon what I write.

Finally; I am a Christian, not a trinitarian.
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MoJo · Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:39 am Post subject:

Rev Jp, if I misunderstood you I apologize, but if you look at your post, perhaps you can see how the assumption was made. You definitely tied in the ultimate measure of faith with a belief in the trinity.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

As I said; one of the ultimate expressions of faith...

As is the belief in God and the belief in His creation. Three things which cannot be fully comprehended by our insignificant intellect, and must be believed in and accepted utterly by faith.

I believe you got to the heart of the issue here:

MoJo · Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:06 pm Post subject:

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

There is no requirment by God or Jesus Christ to believe in a triune God. The requirement is to believe in One Almighty and Sovereign God, the one true God of Israel and His Son, Messiah and savior of the world Jesus Christ. You cannot and will not force be to believe any other way. To believe in the trinity is a sin. A very large sin and to accept Jesus as anything more then Savior and Messiah is also a sin. Just because your eyes have been blinded doesn't mean mine are. Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me I don't understand. I do understand, more then you know.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

I'm sorry you feel that way Bridget.

larryjf · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:

Capt Mercury · Ferret Joined: 26 Sep 2003 Posts: 100 Location: SoCal

MoJo & Bridget,

OK, some of what I'm going to post below you've probably heard before, but I imagine that some of it will be new.

To believe that Jesus is the Son of God is to believe that He is God. Consider the following passage, where this is quite clear:

John 20:28-31 - Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? (Cap - clearly... that Jesus is God.) Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Clearly from these verses to believe that Jesus is the Son of God is to believe that Jesus is God. When Jesus said that He was the Son of God, the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, because they understood Him to be claiming to be God. Here's some more passages that speak of the deity of Christ:

Passages that clearly teach that Jesus is God:
John 1:1,2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with ("nose-to-nose") God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
(Cap - I posted on John 1:1c in that other trinity thread.)

John 5:17, 18 - But Jesus responded to them, "My Father is still working, and I also am working." This is why the Jews began trying all the more to kill Him: not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(Cap - Jesus clearly was "making Himself equal with God here" here. The Jews clearly understood that if Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, that was equivalent to claiming to BE God Himself.)

John 5:22, 23 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex.
(Why did the Jews attempt to stone Him? For blasphemy... because they knew that he was claiming to be God.)

John 10:30 - 33 The Father and I are one." Again the Jews picked up rocks to stone Him. Jesus replied, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these works are you stoning Me?" "We aren't stoning You for a good work," the Jews answered, "but for blasphemy, and because You--being a man--make Yourself God."
(The Jews equated Jesus claiming to be the Son of God to claiming to BE God.)

Rom. 9:5 The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah (Gk - hO CRISTOS - ο Χριστὸς), who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
(Anyone who read this too quickly, go back and read it again... The Messiah [the Christ] IS God.)

1 Corin. 10:9 Let us not tempt Christ (Gk - TON CRISTON - τὸν Χριστόν) as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes.
But according to Exodus, just who did they tempt? ->
Exo. 21:5-7 The people spoke against God and Moses, " Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food." The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people.
And of course, when you consider how Jesus applied that scripture to Himself:
John 3:14, 15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
(Cap - Now, when you consider these three passages together, how can you deny that Jesus was claiming to be God? The Bible text is clear, IMO.)

Col. 1:19 For in him all the fulness [of God] was pleased to dwell...

Col. 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.

To believe in Christ is to believe in the Father... in God:
John 12:44, 45 Then Jesus cried out, "The one who believes in Me believes not in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And the one who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

John 14:7-11 "If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him." "Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe because of the works themselves.

John 17:10 All My things are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been glorified in them.
(Everything that the Father is, Jesus is. The Father has nothing that the Son does not have as well)

1 John 2:22, 23 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

The Son is the Only way to the Father:
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 "If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him."

Matt. 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son desires to reveal Him.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Tim. 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time

Jesus created all things:
John 1:3, 4 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Col. 1:16, 17 because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.

OK, one last evidence that the deity of Christ is clearly taught in the NT... the Granville Sharp rule:

There are four texts with grammatical forms proving that Jesus Christ = God (2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Tim.5:21; Tit.2:13; 1 Pet.1:1). Each fit the "Granville Sharp" Greek grammatical rule proving 2 titles describe the same person. IOW, in each of those instances above the Greek actually states that Jesus is God - though it is not always as clear in the English. Dr. Daniel Wallace in His Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics has a section going into great detail on this - but it requires a background in NT Greek. Let me just list one below - Titus 2:13 with the NET note. I have some familiarity with the Greek and this particular Greek rule, if anyone is interested. FYI, this Granville Sharp rule finds over 100 instances that it appears in the NT, and in every instance it does refer to the same person. "our great God and Savior" and "Jesus Christ" is the same person.

Titus 2:13 - as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.20
20tn The terms "God and Savior" both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-kaiv-noun (where kaiv [kai] = "and"), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as "the friend and brother," "the God and Father," etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp's point. The only issue is whether terms such as "God" and "Savior" could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both "God" (qeov", qeos) and "savior" (swthvr, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp's rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp's rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp's rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp's rule see D. B. Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

So then, to believe in the Son of God is to believe in God. John clearly says that in 1st John as well:

1 John 2:22, 23 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Thx,

Cap
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"But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Rom. 11:6
"Faith alone in Christ alone"

Van · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject:

Cap, thanks. So the punctuation is not arbitrary and ends driven, with trinitarians having one version and the anti-trinitarians having an equally viable alternate version i. e God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Two entities.

So 2 Thess 1:12 should read "our God and Lord, Jesus Christ according to the Sharp rule and not "our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" as the NASB renders it?

And 1 Tim. 5:21 should read "before Jesus, Christ and God, and His chosen messengers" according to the Sharp rule and not before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the chosen messengers...?

The NASB follows the Sharp rule in Titus 2:13, "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"

Capt Mercury · Ferret Joined: 26 Sep 2003 Posts: 100 Location: SoCal

Van · Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject:

Yes Cap, I just have this one question. Do you know why the NASB did not follow the G/S rule for the first two but did for the last two (2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13)?

Capt Mercury · Ferret Joined: 26 Sep 2003 Posts: 100 Location: SoCal

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Instead of arguing why don't we take the question of the trinity l step at a time. One in the beginning of Matthew we have the genealogy of Jesus which shows Him to be a Jew out of the line of David.
This What do Jews believe from the Judaism101 site.

What Do Jews
Believe?

What Do Jews Believe?
Level: Basic

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

G-d exists
G-d is one and unique
G-d is incorporeal
G-d is eternal
Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
The words of the prophets are true
Moses's prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
There will be no other Torah
G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
The Messiah will come
The dead will be resurrected
As you can see, these are very basic and general principles. Yet as basic as these principles are, the necessity of believing each one of these has been disputed at one time or another, and the liberal movements of Judaism dispute many of these principles.

Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.

Judaism focuses on relationships: the relationship between G-d and mankind, between G-d and the Jewish nation, between the Jewish nation and the land of Israel, and between human beings. Our scriptures tell the story of the development of these relationships, from the time of creation, through the creation of the relationship between G-d and Abraham, to the creation of the relationship between G-d and the Jewish people, and forward.
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As you can see by the discription of what Jews believe, you must admit Jews believe in One God and One God alone, so this belief would have been the belief of Jesus Christ since He was raised a Jew.

Taking this into account, how do you think Jesus would feel if He were to witness this belief in a triune God, One God in three persons?
The men of the early church, I mean the church immediately following the death and resurrection of Jesus were Jewish and attended Jewish services, not Christian. What do you think they would think about all this trinity business.
There is not nor has there ever been a God in three persons. It would never be accepted by Jesus Christ or the Apostles, so why do we accept it.