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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| 1 Timothy 1:5-7; "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart and a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6; From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2191
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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I have on occasion been tempted to quote that one, but have refrained.
1 Timothy 1:5-7 also uses the word "end" as meaning the objective, the goal, or the real point of. We do not come to Christ in order to obey the law. It was the law that was given to bring us to Christ.
We do not partake of the new and better covenant so that we can better keep the old covenant. The old covenant came after the covenant of promise and could not disanull it. And it was only given until the promise (Jesus Christ) was fulfilled. It was the covenant of the law that was to bring us into this glorious new covenant of grace and peace.
Salvation as a free gift through Jesus Christ is the end, the objective, the goal, the point of the law.
Go, Pete! |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | Salvation as a free gift through Jesus Christ is the end, the objective, the goal, the point of the law.
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Let's examine this for a minute, OK ?
Salvation is free ?
Well....
I'll put it this way, Salvation is easy to get, BUT HARD to hold unto.
There is absolutely no such thing as...."Once Saved, Always Saved".
Few few people want to believe Jesus Christ when He said:
24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew )
The trouble is the concept of Salvation, is almost completely unknown in todays Christian world.
Very few people understand that ONLY those who keep ALL God's commandments, thru the power of Grace, which God freely gives to each individual ....ONLY those people are Saved.
Obedience, to God's commandments is the ONLY condition that permits a person to get into heaven.
AND.....ONLY Jesus Christ can help a person, obtain that goal. |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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SS,
What you are basically saying is that the only reason Jesus came was to help people do what they could not do in the OT, keep the Law?
Interesting. Wonder why he had to suffer and die then...I guess he was in the wrong place at the wrong time? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2191
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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...and so with a couple of out-of-context scripture verses, a platitude or two based on a false premise, the introduction of "Once Saved Always Saved" into the discussion, which until now none of us had been discussing, and the smug declaration that all the other Christians out there are ignorant, and you've brought the discussion back around full circle.  |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kejonn wrote: | SS,
What you are basically saying is that the only reason Jesus came was to help people do what they could not do in the OT, keep the Law? |
Yes, the people in the OT could NOT keep the Old Covenant, because they promised to keep God's Law.
BUT, they failed because they tried to do it in their own human strenght.
The New Covenant is built on better promises, which are....God will help a person keep the commandments, thru Grace, which is God's power to obey what He says to do.
Remember that the New Covenant was avialable in Old Testament times.
Abraham and Moses and Noah...ect...ect. were living under the New Covenant.
It is said of Abraham.....
26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
The ONLY way Abraham could have kept God's Laws and commandments, was because God was helping him to do so....thru Grace.
GRACE, which is freely given to each and every person on earth, if they will but ask for it !
| Quote: |
Interesting. Wonder why he had to suffer and die then...I guess he was in the wrong place at the wrong time? |
The Bible says: Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Sin is defined in the Bible as.....
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
AND......
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
In other words, "Sinners are LawBreakers.....Christians are LawKeepers".
When Jesus Christ died on the cross, He removed the 'Past' sins (Romans 3:25), giving us another chance at gaining eternal life....
Which God has promised to anyone, who keeps the commandments.
Keeping the commandments has ALWAYS been the condition to having eternal life.
Just ask Adam & Eve.
Jesus Christ proposes to grant eternal life to those who repent of their past sins, and to give them up, not practicing them again......
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Ignorance will Kill You ! |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...seeing that they have forgotten the Law of thy God".
THe true Christian understands this Bible verse:
"The Law of the Lord is PERFECT...converting the soul", (Psalms 19:7).
The true Bible student understands the role the 10 commandments(Exodus 20:3-17) plays in the born-again experience. |
SS,
Ignorance will also get you forgiven and saved --since it takes the Law of Love to convert the heart from Hate to Love---and God has to draw each person to that Love: no man can do it of himself: John 6:44-45. Jer 31:3:---whihc Love is the only part of making any already-physically born person be born twice by having The Life of Love be born in them!
Luke 23:
34Then said Jesus,
Father, forgive them;
for they know not what they do.
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief[ignorance], that he might have mercy upon all.
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin[due to ignorance of the law of Love], that the promise by faith[Love] of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe [and that don't believe].
in The Knowledge of Love for the ignorant and the knowledgeable that makes us be born twice and die once,
atoz |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Ignorance will Kill You ! |
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| atoz wrote: | SS,
Ignorance will also get you forgiven and saved |
NO....
That is in direct violation of what God said.....
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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New here... hi all.
My interest has recently been peaked regarding many of the issues you all are discussing in this thread. I sought out some kind of Biblical discussion forum and here I am.
A little background on myself. I work with sex addicts and consider myself one as well. I have over 3 years of sobriety from my addiction, and I think, have a unique perspective on some very physically, emotionally, and spiritually destructive sin.
Some here are claiming that we are now under grace (like the moderator RevJP and Zathrus if I’m not mistaken).
The obvious question that comes to mind is how you look at scriptures like in Luke where Jesus asked why you call him Lord but do not do what he says? Or, Galatians 5 (a letter written to a Christian population) where Paul says that those who live in the sins he lists "will not inherit the Kingdom of God". Or Hebrews 10:26 where Paul basically says that if we deliberately keep on sinning, that we can only expect fire and judgment. Or the parable of the 10 virgins where half of them were turned away. Or Matthew 7:21 where Jesus says those who enter the Kingdom of heaven are those who do the will of his Father. Or… or… or…
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is an overwhelming amount of scripture saying, yeah, you are saved by grace, but now that you are, stop sinning. And that if you deliberately continue in sin, sucks to be you.
I mean, are the guys who are saying "grace, grace, grace" tempering that with, yes, we serve a God of grace, and if he is your Lord, if you are indeed saved, that grace will impact your behavior?
I'm not ready to say that any sin past the point of salvation is utterly damning, but I do think the church is FAR to naïve in their attitude towards sin. We are to be separate from the world, a light on a hill, the salt, the lamp. How does the light shine when it is constantly immersed in muck?
In regard to my own personal experiences… I work with sex addicts. Men who through biological, emotional, or spiritual reasons, cannot find it in themselves to stop looking at pornography, masturbating, visiting massage parlors, strips clubs, adult books stores, cheating on wives, etc. The thing that disturbs me so very much are the statistics regarding Christian men in America and their use of pornography and sexual things, which are clearly sin. The numbers are alarming. The poles I’ve seen(the conservative ones) indicate that over half the men in the church have an ongoing struggle with pornography. Even worse, that trend is echoed in the clergy of the church(can we say, Pastor Ted Haggard?). I live that out on a day to day basis as I talk to these men, living with them through the worst times of their lives. And I will have a hard time indeed describing the carnage they leave behind them as a direct result of their actions. And what I DON’T see that breaks my heart, is the pulpits of America addressing this issue like the cancer it is. Marriages are destroyed, children sent spiraling into oblivion, where many will never recover. Where is the call for these men to be Godly men? In what world did Jesus ever say that it’s okay to live that way? To live in such a way that destroys the people around me?
I really liked what I read from another posted in another thread here(posted by lone-something or other). He said basically that what Jesus did was to elevate the law. Instead of “do not commit adultery”, now it’s “do not even look lustfully at a woman”. Do not murder… to do not even hate your brother. That is something I think I can really sink my teeth into. The foundation of the law hasn’t gone anywhere. In fact, the requirement has actually increased, if anything.
One scripture that I think talks to this idea better than any, is Galatians 5:16-18 “16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”
If I am living by the Spirit, where the elevated law tells me not to even look lustfully at a woman because it is not loving to do so, there’s no way I’m going to go so far as to break the underlying law itself which says not to commit adultery. Thus, I’m not under the law. But, if I step outside the bounds of walking in the Spirit, the new boundary again becomes the old law.
As it applies to the men I work with, the words of Jesus very much still are… “Your sins are forgiven, go your way and sin no more.”
Anyway. Sorry for the somewhat disjointed nature of my post. Just some random thoughts and ponderings on this subject.
Thoughts? |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | From a rather simplistic view of things let me ask:
How can one reconcile the fact that we are saved by Grace through faith, with the idea that we are still somehow subject to the dictates of OT law? Doesn't compulsory obedience to a set of rules by definition contradict salvation by Grace through Faith? |
Here's a post by the mod, RevJP. This illustrates something that I think we have mixed up in the Church.
Works VS Obedience.
Is it a "work" to do what God told me? God told me not to cheat on my wife. If I obey God in that, am I now suddenly trying to achieve my salvation by works when I have already specifically trusted Jesus for that?
Conversely, is it a work to give money to the poor, prophesy in Jesus name, and do all manor of "good" positive things, and think that my salvation is purchased by that action apart from trusting in Jesus?
Obedience does not equal works. Which brings me to my next point.
Compulsory obedience does not contradict salvation by grace through faith. Why? I no longer belong to myself ONCE I HAVE BEEN SAVED. I have been bought with a price, and my life is no longer my own. If I in fact name Jesus Christ as my Lord, I will obey what he has instructed me to do. In a sense, I really think SS has the essence of it. Salvation is free. Now that you're saved, your life is no longer your own. You do not get to say what you do and don't do. The idea of come to God and everything will be peachy Christianity is not what is communicated in the Bible.
When Jesus asked "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord', when you do not do what I say", I think he was addressing THIS VERY ISSUE. I've heard it said before that when God asks a question, it's not because he seeks information. I think God asks these kinds of questions to communicate a truth. The only reason I don't do what Jesus says when I call him Lord, is that he is not in fact my Lord. I am my own Lord at that point. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Hi Vikingman44...I like that.. 
I noticed something Jesus said here:.. NOW and NEW and BY THIS...
Jhn 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
And I know the verse about all the law being summed up written here:
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
In One WORD..oh cool! Jesus IS the WORD..
sorry.I get carried away when I see somethin new..I get goose bumbs lol..
And how did Jesus fulfill the law?
That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Adam was given one commandment and broke it and the world plunged into sin.
We have been given one commandment and the power to keep it so we can overcome!
If you love one another, if we watch out for one another, if we cause no harm to one another...
haven't we fulfilled the law?
Hugs
lone
she is dancing in the clouds..yeehaw!! |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | If you love one another, if we watch out for one another, if we cause no harm to one another...
haven't we fulfilled the law? |
I think that is a very safe way of looking at it. My actions that are loving to others, will fall within the guidelines of the law, my actions that are not loving to others fall outside the new commandment Jesus gave us. So, you are right. It actually elevates the law. The requirement is actually increased.
"To whom much has been given, much will be expected" |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| VikingMan44 wrote: | Works VS Obedience.
Is it a "work" to do what God told me? God told me not to cheat on my wife. If I obey God in that, am I now suddenly trying to achieve my salvation by works when I have already specifically trusted Jesus for that?
Conversely, is it a work to give money to the poor, prophesy in Jesus name, and do all manor of "good" positive things, and think that my salvation is purchased by that action apart from trusting in Jesus? |
Here's something else. I think a lot of this relates to the heart. WHY are you being obedient or doing your good works. If you are doing it because you think you are earning your salvation with it, you are wrong. And if that is the basis of your salvation, you are wrong. You cannot obey the commandments of God, new and old, and expect entry to heaven on the basis of that alone. THAT is reserved for those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their Lord. But, those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord will be obedient and do good works, or one must question whether or not he is in fact your Lord.
It's a matter of the heart and the order of things. Where is your heart?
I think that is the balance and the truth between these two apparently opposing points of view. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinkin'...(i do that a lot..LOL)
those ten virgins 1/2 full...maybe they represent the ten commandments umm..luke warm. Neither hot nor cold that's why they get left out..spewed out even..hmm
they weren't filled with Love..hmm
nice to meet you by the way vikingman.
I was down that road once before myself..maybe not so much the porno but the drugs messed with me for awhile.
Thankyou for being there for us who need someone who can lift heavy things to help us with our burdens.
God Bless You
hugs
lone |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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hot or cold...typos.. 
they have to find a way to eliminate some of these ruts and bumbs in the road..LOL.. |
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