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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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James, these are the types of questions which gave birth to the doctrine of the Trinity.
Jesus is the Son of God, and scripturally He has also been asserted as God, He has been shown as one with God and there at the beginning of everything with God. The Holy Spirit has been pointed out as an identifiable entity as well as being linked as one with God, and as being God.
Jesus accepted worship, which as you pointed out, would constitute idolatry, unless of course He was deserving of worship as the One True God. Jesus referred to Himself on more than one occasion as the I Am, which refers back to Moses and the identification of God given to him by God.
The doctrine of the trinity simply takes the references to God, the Spirit, Jesus, and their unity and individuality, also considered the apparent contradictions and brought them all together to the only acceptable conclusion to the whole matter - which is the One True God manifested in three distinct Persons/Personalities.
The difficulty here is that such a triune God is impossible for humans to understand, and impossible for some to accept, but the real problem is that if one does not accept the triune God, one is left with unexplainable contradictions into the nature of God.
Trinitarians couple the concept of Occam's Razor and faith to accept that the simplest explanation is the true explanation even though we cannot fully fathom how it can be. Ultimately it is a matter of faith. Scripture tells us something is the way it is and we accept it, on faith, not on our own understanding.
That is my take on the situation anyway.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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James1-26
Bear Cub
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 603
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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If Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God, who sits on the left?
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"Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:..." --the LORD |
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christina
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Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The doctrine of the trinity simply takes the references to God, the Spirit, Jesus, and their unity and individuality, also considered the apparent contradictions and brought them all together to the only acceptable conclusion to the whole matter - which is the One True God manifested in three distinct Persons/Personalities. |
the only acceptable conclusion to the whole matter - which is the One True God manifested in three distinct Persons/Personalities. -Dont Agree, well not ther way you see it.
if three make one as you say, that would make God incomplete when Jesus was on earth.
I believe Jesus has GOD IN him but I dont believe he himself is God
I believe God would be God without Jesus, But Jesus would be nothing if not for God. Do you see what im saying?
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Capt Mercury
Ferret
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 100
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| James1-26 wrote: | | If Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God, who sits on the left? |
Uh, not me. 8)
Cap
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"Faith alone in Christ alone" |
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Capt Mercury
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Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | Quote: | | The doctrine of the trinity simply takes the references to God, the Spirit, Jesus, and their unity and individuality, also considered the apparent contradictions and brought them all together to the only acceptable conclusion to the whole matter - which is the One True God manifested in three distinct Persons/Personalities. |
the only acceptable conclusion to the whole matter - which is the One True God manifested in three distinct Persons/Personalities. -Dont Agree, well not ther way you see it.
if three make one as you say, that would make God incomplete when Jesus was on earth.
I believe Jesus has GOD IN him but I dont believe he himself is God
I believe God would be God without Jesus, But Jesus would be nothing if not for God. Do you see what im saying? |
No. Three do not make one.
Jesus is God. He is a distinct person of the Godhead. He has always been and will always be God. He was fully God while on earth.
It's not three Gods.
It's not each member of the Godhead a "part" of God.
And notice... I said that all without once using the term "trinity."
If Jesus has God in Him, then he is NOT God, and He could not pay the penalty for our sin. He could not have allowed anyone to worship Him.
So I see what you are saying. It is not biblical. That's not what the Bible says.
Cap
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"But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Rom. 11:6
"Faith alone in Christ alone" |
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christina
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Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The difficulty here is that such a triune God is impossible for humans to understand, and impossible for some to accept, but the real problem is that if one does not accept the triune God, one is left with unexplainable contradictions into the nature of God. |
Actually on the Contrary
If all your life you were taught and believe Jesus is God, and then you come to see the diffrence between the two, the unexplainable contradictions you were talking about become very clear. It was only before that the contradictions came about.
The Bible mainly the OT and all of its warning and woes and predictions become so real.
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christina
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Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing,
| Quote: | | 8“I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Luke 12,8 |
Would God ever forgive blasphemes against himself?
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Cap't, I believe you put a little clarification in there, thank you.
Christina,
| Quote: | | Would God ever forgive blasphemes against himself? |
You are drawing from different theological concepts to prove a point. Let us take a look at the idea of blaspheme against the holy spirit, and why that is the only unforgivable sin:
In Acts 2:38, Peter describes God's salvation in terms of three things:
~ Repentance - turning from sin to God
~ Baptism in water - the enacting of that repentance
~ The gift of the Holy Spirit - the sealing of that repentance
In verse 39, Peter proclaims that this gift of the Holy Spirit is a promise for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is what marks out the believer in Jesus as different from those around. In Ephesians 1:13, Paul declares:
...Having believed, you were marked in him with a
seal, the promised Holy Spirit.
In Ephesians 4:30, Paul warns: and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Seal of Ownership; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he who makes our faith strong together with you, in Christ, and has given us of his grace, is God; And it is he who has put his stamp on us, even the Spirit, as the sign in our hearts of the coming glory.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he who has made us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a witness of what is to come.
The Bible speaks of our salvation in terms of redemption - a buying back of our lives to God. But in ancient times, redemption was a three-step process:
~ Purchase - the redeemer would pay the required price for the item he was redeeming.
~ Sealing - the redeemer would mark the item with his personal seal, identify the item as now belonging to him.
~ Collection - the redeemer would later return to collect his sealed item.
This is a picture of the three-step process in the redemption of your life
by God. The price for your life has already been paid (1 Corinthians
6:19-20; 1 Peter 1:18-19). And because you now belong to God, he has
branded you with his personal seal, the Holy Spirit. This seal is a mark of
ownership and sets you apart as different from those who do not yet belong to God.
2 Timothy 2:19 But God's strong base is unchanging, having this sign, The Lord has knowledge of those who are his: and, Let everyone by whom the name of the Lord is named be turned away from evil.
The Holy Spirit is God's gift to every believer. When a person personally
receives Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, the Holy Spirit comes to live on
the inside, imparting spiritual life.
1 John 4:13 And his Spirit which he has given us is the witness that we are in him and he is in us.
So what does this indicate about blaspheme of the Holy Spirit? Simply this: Blaspheme means to To speak of (God or a sacred entity) in an irreverent, impious manner - To revile; execrate {to declare declare to be hateful or abhorrent; denounce}, so if one blasphemes the Holy Spirit one is in essence denouncing the Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is God's mark on the redeemed, the was in which God recognized that which is His, we very well could not receive, nor have received the Spirit if we blaspheme the spirit. So what I gather is that blaspheme of the spirit is the one unforgivable sin because it is the one thing that prevents us from receiving God's gracious gift of salvation.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you Rev. That was a very good post.
But Not this part
| Quote: |
You are drawing from different theological concepts to prove a point |
Take away your personal point of view, and we would agree on your post.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not quite sure what you mean, or your reasons for saying it, but okay.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Rev, you should'nt always have your guard up.
What i ment was i agree with this.
| Quote: | In Acts 2:38, Peter describes God's salvation in terms of three things:
~ Repentance - turning from sin to God
~ Baptism in water - the enacting of that repentance
~ The gift of the Holy Spirit - the sealing of that repentance
In verse 39, Peter proclaims that this gift of the Holy Spirit is a promise for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is what marks out the believer in Jesus as different from those around. In Ephesians 1:13, Paul declares:
...Having believed, you were marked in him with a
seal, the promised Holy Spirit.
In Ephesians 4:30, Paul warns: and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Seal of Ownership; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he who makes our faith strong together with you, in Christ, and has given us of his grace, is God; And it is he who has put his stamp on us, even the Spirit, as the sign in our hearts of the coming glory.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he who has made us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a witness of what is to come.
The Bible speaks of our salvation in terms of redemption - a buying back of our lives to God. But in ancient times, redemption was a three-step process:
~ Purchase - the redeemer would pay the required price for the item he was redeeming.
~ Sealing - the redeemer would mark the item with his personal seal, identify the item as now belonging to him.
~ Collection - the redeemer would later return to collect his sealed item.
This is a picture of the three-step process in the redemption of your life
by God. The price for your life has already been paid (1 Corinthians
6:19-20; 1 Peter 1:18-19). And because you now belong to God, he has
branded you with his personal seal, the Holy Spirit. This seal is a mark of
ownership and sets you apart as different from those who do not yet belong to God.
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Capt Mercury
Ferret
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 100
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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christiana,
I like your attitude. There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century at the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "...was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church." (Hannah, Our Legacy, The History of Christian Doctrine, p. 45)
Now, this Nicean Council was not when the trinity was developed. Nor earlier, around 210 AD, did Tertullian "invent" this concept. It had been a foundational belief of the Christian church from the very beginning.
Although the word "trinity" (or as some prefer - "tri-unity") is not found in the Bible, the concept that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God is throughout the Bible. It was always believed by the NT church, the Apostolic Fathers and the Church Fathers. When people tried to teach something different, such as Arius did, there were quick and strong objections. When Peter told Ananias that He had lied to the Holy Spirit, he added that he was "not lying to men, but to God."
When men tried to worship Paul or Peter in Acts, they quickly squelched that vehemently. Similarly with OT prophets. Yet Jesus allowed men to worship Him on more than one occasion.
The Trinitarian idea is communicated before Tertullian in many church documents. Let me quote church historian professor John Hannah (DTS), "First, the church never evidenced disbelief in the deity of the Savior until recent centuries." That is a matter of historical fact, according to many church historians. When Arius began to teach that Jesus was not God, the council of Trent organized by Constantine quickly put a stop to such things. It did NOT initiate the concept, but simply put in words which were more clear regarding the boundaries what the church had ALWAYS believed.
Hannah goes on to say that, "while church leaders struggled over how to explain the relationship of the two natures of Christ, nearly every one of them nonetheless held firmly to both natures." Jesus' deity was not "invented" in 220 AD by Tertullian, or later in 325 AD, it was an attempt to explain it more clearly.
"Historically, we know that "Jesus is Lord" was the earliest most basic profession of faith in Christ. It was a statement of His deity - and that was clearly understood by the professors. You can say that they misunderstood what Jesus intended, if you want, or that they did not understand the OT, but it's a fact that the Christians of the 1st few centuries of the NT viewed Jesus Christ as God. To say anything else is contrary to written records. (Hannah)
I put together quotes found from searches on the internet and reading in church history books over the past few years. It is one of the more thorough lists I've come across. And the following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well long before the Council of Nicea...
Note: that long list of quotes was edited and separated from this post so as to make two shorter posts... please see below.
If, as those who deny the trinity maintain, the trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the trinity is a biblical doctrine and we have evidence it was taught not only before the council of Nicea, not only beforeTertullian, but at the time of the Apostle John himself.
Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught in the manner it is today until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council (323AD). It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were extremely fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.
Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, for example, then the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked and defended. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the trinity was further defined. The early church believed in the trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until heretics began to espouse things contrary to sound biblical doctrine here that councils began to meet to discuss the trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
Can you find historical quotes of people clearly saying that Jesus is NOT God? (Before the Arian controversy in the early 4th century.) And if so... how do they stack up with these?
Just something to think about...
Cap
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"But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Rom. 11:6
"Faith alone in Christ alone"
Last edited by Capt Mercury on Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:38 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Nobby
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Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: Note |
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Cap my friend, don't make a habbit of posts like the Loooooooong, cut & paste one above! OK? 
I know a good part of it is your own. 
Thanks,
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Capt Mercury
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Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 100
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Note |
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| Nobby wrote: | Cap my friend, don't make a habbit of posts like the Loooooooong, cut & paste one above! OK?
I know a good part of it is your own.
Thanks, |
Nobby,
The stuff in the quote was accumulated over time from various sources.
But how else can you show the evidence? It's not like I went to a professional library and did the research myself. I've read up on this stuff over the past few years, and have been compiling information - with the documentation.
I can break it up into parts, no problem.
But are you saying that you only want completely original work - in such a case as this? We're not tallking about someone cut-n-pasting arguments they read on the Inet regarding, say, eternal security. Does this mean that you want no quotes from Calvin or Augustine or John MacArthur?
I understand the concern over cut-n-posting work that a person didn't do himself. But in this instance, what else can be done? The length issue I understand. And I've been on forums where someone just cut-n-pasted arguments that they found on the Inet somewhere, without explaining or giving arguments.
Just trying to clarify,
Cap
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"But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Rom. 11:6
"Faith alone in Christ alone" |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Cap, I wouldn't change what you have posted. I frown on a lot of long posts. The reason is takes a long time to load a page if it has 3 or 4 long posts on it. Cap, everybody cuts & paste some. But sure I want you to be able to display your work. When you post your work in the future & you know it's going to be very long, if you can find ways break it up in smaller sections it will work better.
You can put up to 15 posts on a page. But you can fill a page with one post. Thing is, the page will be much longer.
Cap, I wasn't trying to give you a hard time.
Peace bro.
Nobby
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Last edited by Nobby on Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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