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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:10 pm Post subject: Questions on Homosexuality |
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Many questions regarding homosexuality have been asked and discussed on this board:
Is homosexuality natural? Does it have genetic causes?
If it is a natural condition of some, why would God say it is a sin – is that fair?
Can homosexuals be Christian?
If homosexuality is the same as all other sins, why does the bible mention in specifically so often?
Many questions and very few adequate answers, or so it had seemed to me.
Today while taking a break from yard work, I decided to come to the boards and spend some time. The servers were down unfortunately and I really did not want to continue working in the yard so I began roaming around the net. I went to favorites and quite arbitrarily clicked on one of the links to a Christian website (Desiring God Ministries), and began to peruse the articles. I ran across a link to a sermon on homosexuality and decided to read it. What I found was a revelation.
I have no doubt in my Christian mind that the Holy Spirit had led me to this place, to read this sermon, in order to reveal His truth to me on an issue to which I have thus far been confused. I believe that there are few mysteries in this life, which cannot be understood with the help of Scripture, and it has bothered me that these issues have left me thinking, “Well, I guess I’ll learn the truth when I am with my Lord”. That idea in itself bothered me, but I had nowhere to go to find the truth – our discussions have always ended without acceptable conclusion.
I found this sermon at a time when my mind and heart were not set on anything in particular, I did not have an agenda in mind and my mind and heart were open to the truth from the Spirit unlike it has ever been before. Therefore, I ask that all of you who have participated in the discussions regarding homosexuality, and those who have just read and wondered – please go to the links I have posted and read the sermons, then let us talk about them.
The Other Dark Exchange: Homosexuality
The Other Dark Exchange: Homosexuality, Part 2
RevJP
Last edited by RevJP on Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Questions on Homosexuality |
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| RevJP wrote: | | please go to the links I have posted and read the sermons, then let us talk about them. |
Not bad for fundamentalist sermons though a little dull.
The guy is apparently at the same stage as many "some of my best friends are negroes" people were in 1962. He claims not to hate, yet he advocates public policies designed to harm people. In short, he's too intensely hooked onto the thought distortion of "being right" to realize how wrong he is. He is probably not a bad person but he's preaching bad theology.
He apparently has not thought out his responses very well at all. His comment to parents of adult LGBTs for example-to love them but "speak the biblical truth" IOW snipe at them with Bible quotes out of context, is incredibly poor advice. It is impossible to love LGBt adult children and not fully accept their domestic partners as entirely equal to one's sons-in-law and daughters-in-law who are married to one's heterosexual children, including to have them share a room when visiting over holidays. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I fear you may have missed the relevance of his message, particularly regarding 'natural' tendancies and how it relates to our condition of human in light of our state of seperation from God.
...Human beings exchange God for what God has made; we prefer the creature to the Creator. · Step 2 - God hands us over to what we prefer. · Step 3 - We act out externally and bodily in our sexual relations a dramatization of the internal, spiritual condition of the fallen human soul, namely, the horrendous exchange of God for man and the images of our power
...First time through the three-fold sequence - verses 23-34
Step 1 "They exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man . . ." (verse 23).
Step 2 "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity" (verse 24).
Step 3 ". . . so that their bodies would be dishonored among them" (end of verse 24). In response to the rejection of God's glory as their treasure, God wills that there be a disordering of their bodily life in dishonorable deeds. He hands them over to impurity "so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." The sexual disordering of the human race is a judgment of God for our exchanging him for the creature - all of us.
...1. The deepest problem of our lives, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is the terrible exchange of the glory of God for images (verse 23). The exchange of the truth of God for a lie (verse 25). The disapproval of having God in our knowledge (verse 28). Failed worship is our worst disorder. This is beneath all the maladies of the world. Repairing this, not first our disordered sexuality, is our main business in life.
2. The sexual disordering of our lives, most vividly seen in homosexuality (though not only there), is the judgment of God upon the human race because we have exchanged the glory of God for other things. Sometimes people ask, "Is AIDS the judgment of God on homosexuality?" The answer from this text is: homosexuality itself is a judgment on the human race, because we have exchanged the glory of God for the creature - and so is AIDS and cancer and arthritis and Alzheimer's and every other disease and every other futility and misery in the world, including death. That's the point of Romans 5:15-18 and Romans 8:20-23, which we looked at when talking about Romans 1:18.
And what we saw there was that those who believe in Jesus Christ and are justified by faith and become the children of God are not taken out of this world of woe, but are given the grace to experience the very judgments of God on the human race as the merciful pathway to holiness and heaven rather than sin and hell.
3. The reason Paul focuses on homosexuality in these verses is because it is the most vivid dramatization in life of the profoundest connection between the disordering of heart-worship and the disordering of our sexual lives. I'll try to say it simply, though it is weighty beyond words.
We learn from Paul in Ephesians 5:31-32 that, from the beginning, manhood and womanhood existed to represent or dramatize God's relation to his people and then Christ's relation to his bride, the church. In this drama, the man represents God or Christ and is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. The woman represents God's people or the church. And sexual union in the covenant of marriage represents pure, undefiled, intense heart-worship. That is, God means for the beauty of worship to be dramatized in the right ordering of our sexual lives.
But instead, we have exchanged the glory of God for images, especially of ourselves. The beauty of heart-worship has been destroyed. Therefore, in judgment, God decrees that this disordering of our relation to him be dramatized in the disordering of our sexual relations with each other. And since the right ordering of our relationship to God in heart-worship was dramatized by heterosexual union in the covenant of marriage, the disordering of our relationship to God is dramatized by the breakdown of that heterosexual union.
Homosexuality is the most vivid form of that breakdown. God and man in covenant worship are represented by male and female in covenant sexual union. Therefore, when man turns from God to images of himself, God hands us over to what we have chosen and dramatizes it by male and female turning to images of themselves for sexual union, namely their own sex. Homosexuality is the judgment of God dramatizing the exchange of the glory of God for images of ourselves. (See the parallel uses of "exchange" in verses 25 and 26.)
4. Which leads us to one last word: The healing of the homosexual soul, as with every other soul, will be the return of the glory God to its rightful place in our affections.
What of this? |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:30 am Post subject: |
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It seems to me to be just so much mental masturbation to justify one's prejudices.
I can see basically what he is doing is characterizing homosexuality as just another, or in his view, the most extreme sort of bling-bling (Hip Hop slang for fancy accoutrements like jewelry or cars-IOW, indulgences). That would be reasonable in the case of the extremely adventurous, those for whom an act of same gender sex is merely another form of indulgence like a Club Med vacation or an SUV. But that is a most unfair characterization of the vast majority of LGBT people for whom same gender sexual experiences are a form of love.
This is of course a direct result of his ignorance of human sexuality and it appears common among Christian fundamentalists, who, unfamiliar with quear love and distrustful of their own desires, merely dismiss it as a form of quears gone wild. Check out the shocked attitude of the "Christian Action Network" and their website devoted to stopping "Gay Days" at Disney Theme Parks. They include pictures that they claim are "shocking" that for the most part were fairly tame-people playing Grab-A**, occasionally a dude showing some "electrician's crack" or a woman flashing a mammary-in short the same things heterosexuals do at spring break and Mardi Gras. Of course there are quear party boys and girls who live for this sort of things but for the vast majority of LGBTs this is pretty rare. Not all heterosexuals are featured on the videos of spring break and Mardi Gras, and most never go or if they do behave better. It's the same with LGBTs at Disney Gay Days and Pride Fests. In doing so he ignores and belittles people's capacities to love that are different from his own. It is offensive but apparently due to his ignorance rather than malice.
For the most part I'd say he chose a subject he knows next to nothing about, misrepresented it, sought no new knowledge, and crammed square pegs into round holes with great force. The result is not pretty. He is smug in his conclusion and has no idea how wrong he is. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Questions on Homosexuality |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | please go to the links I have posted and read the sermons, then let us talk about them. |
Not bad for fundamentalist sermons though a little dull. |
You're being generous. 
| Quote: | | I confess that my main aim in these two messages is not to persuade you that homosexual behavior is wrong. It is wrong. |
Yup. I had to smile when reading this. Every church should have at least a few token gays in the congregation for effect. Kinda like a show dog that you could trot out every now and again just to show how 'liberal' you've become...
| Quote: | | This is crucial for dealing with the origins of homosexuality. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the physical components of homosexuality are. But what if genetic origins were found? What would this imply about the morality and fitness of the behavior? Very little, if nature itself is disordered and in need of redemption |
I guess LGBTs should be thankful he's allowing that nature itself is disordered - kinda gives some justification for being different like being crippled or ugly or a color other than snowy-white...I'm sure the good doctors at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Bergen-Belsen could relate to the above argument had they only known about genetics.
8) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | guess LGBTs should be thankful he's allowing that nature itself is disordered |
By he, I assume you are referring to God since this idea came directly from Scripture, is that what you are saying?
DBB, did you read the sermons or just make the same assumptions I made when I first saw them? Because to be completely honest with you, your responses sound much like they always do, assumptions of what someone thinks or feels and a willingness to fight for with little consideration to what one actually says.
Reconsider this:
In response to the rejection of God's glory as their treasure, God wills that there be a disordering of their bodily life in dishonorable deeds. He hands them over to impurity "so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." The sexual disordering of the human race is a judgment of God for our exchanging him for the creature - all of us.
and this:
What if there Were Genetic Origins for Sexual Disorder?
This is crucial for dealing with the origins of homosexuality. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the physical components of homosexuality are. But what if genetic origins were found? What would this imply about the morality and fitness of the behavior? Very little, if nature itself is disordered and in need of redemption. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | guess LGBTs should be thankful he's allowing that nature itself is disordered |
By he, I assume you are referring to God since this idea came directly from Scripture, is that what you are saying? |
Don't blame God for the bad behavior of a mortal. The words are the guy's and his alone.
| Quote: | | DBB, did you read the sermons or just make the same assumptions I made when I first saw them? Because to be completely honest with you, your responses sound much like they always do, assumptions of what someone thinks or feels and a willingness to fight for with little consideration to what one actually says. |
I read them. I never saw so much rhetorical excess and grasping at straws to justify one's prejudices, but, see, what he's doing is the old "iron fist in the velvet glove" technique. He's trying to show what a good guy he is so you won't notice what hate he's spewing, and, it looks like he snookered you.
| Quote: | Reconsider this:
In response to the rejection of God's glory as their treasure, God wills that there be a disordering of their bodily life in dishonorable deeds. He hands them over to impurity "so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." The sexual disordering of the human race is a judgment of God for our exchanging him for the creature - all of us.
and this:
What if there Were Genetic Origins for Sexual Disorder?
This is crucial for dealing with the origins of homosexuality. I don't think anyone knows for sure what the physical components of homosexuality are. But what if genetic origins were found? What would this imply about the morality and fitness of the behavior? Very little, if nature itself is disordered and in need of redemption. |
Both of the statements are extremely regrettable and show his ignorance of basic sexuality. Dr Ruth Westheimer wrote a book in the "For Dummies" series on sex that he could sorely use. I'd donate my copy but I gave it to my nephew in the service who took it over to the Middle East with him. BTW, as an observant Jew, Westheimer is anti-gay in general but as a scientist she recognizes that this is the way some folks are hard-wired. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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DBB you said:
| Quote: | | Don't blame God for the bad behavior of a mortal. The words are the guy's and his alone. |
You of course were referring to this:
| Quote: | Romans 1:24-28
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper. |
Since the basis of his sermon is based on this biblical concept, I must assume you are dismissing scripture as truth in light of what you choose to believe.
| Quote: | | He's trying to show what a good guy he is so you won't notice what hate he's spewing, and, it looks like he snookered you. |
I think you assume too much. to the point that I finished reading the first sermon I was still on the fence regarding the 'natural' causes of homosexuality and how it could not possibly be 'wrong' if it was natural. You have posted in excess regarding how scriptural admonishments against homosexuality were based on the idea that only homosexual activity which contravenes one's nature, and that those who are 'born' gay are not acting in contrast to thier nature.
Scripture tells us that nature is disordered. Man's very nature is corrupt so consequently, any act or orientation would be corrupt. The pastor gave ample evidence - scriptural evidence which shows the Word of God has an established framework for the relationship of man and woman, which is reflected in the continued establishment of God's relationship to his Church - the bride. No my friend, it is not the pastor who has 'snnookered' me, it is the Holy Spirit which has opened my eyes to the truth of His Word.
1 Cor 2:9 But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [[5] who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed].(1)
10 Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the [6] divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny].
11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
Nature is disordered, thus natural man cannot understand, nor accept the wisdom given to us by God through His Spirit. I was led to this sermon, I was shown the truth, in scripture, and now I better understand that which I wrestled with in my 'natural' mind for so long. |
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objectivist
German Shepherd
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Homosexuality is not natural. Neither is "regular" sex. It is a choice, a conscious one or not, a choice nonetheless. There is no gay gene just like there is no talent gene. They are all choices. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="RevJP"] | Quote: | guess LGBTs should be thankful he's allowing that nature itself is disordered
By he, I assume you are referring to God since this idea came directly from Scripture, is that what you are saying? |
Nothing so nefarious. And you know what they say about "assuming"?
I was referring to the speaker...And that idea coming from Scripture? Not mine. I believe that is a perversion of the truth to bolster civic prohibitions - kinda like in maybe two thousand years people will be arguing about what the Constitutional amendment might mean in the gospel according to GeeDub. 8) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| So then you are saying the scriptures do not say what they say? |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: objectivist |
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objectivist ... you are really very funny when you are serious.
I mean come on .. the one about sex of any kind not being normal is a gem ... a real precious one too.
The insects have to love you for that one ... eh.
Talent is a choice .... the talent shows on TV now are a testament to talent not being a choice. If talent were a choice, everyone who spent a thousand bucks on a singing instructor, ukalalee lessons or how about the humorists who think they are funny ... talk about a combination of bad choices and bad talent.
I would re-assess your assets objectivist
thunder |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | DBB you said:
| Quote: | | Don't blame God for the bad behavior of a mortal. The words are the guy's and his alone. |
You of course were referring to this:
| Quote: | Romans 1:24-28
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper. |
Since the basis of his sermon is based on this biblical concept, I must assume you are dismissing scripture as truth in light of what you choose to believe.
| Quote: | | He's trying to show what a good guy he is so you won't notice what hate he's spewing, and, it looks like he snookered you. |
I think you assume too much. to the point that I finished reading the first sermon I was still on the fence regarding the 'natural' causes of homosexuality and how it could not possibly be 'wrong' if it was natural. You have posted in excess regarding how scriptural admonishments against homosexuality were based on the idea that only homosexual activity which contravenes one's nature, and that those who are 'born' gay are not acting in contrast to thier nature.
Scripture tells us that nature is disordered. Man's very nature is corrupt so consequently, any act or orientation would be corrupt. The pastor gave ample evidence - scriptural evidence which shows the Word of God has an established framework for the relationship of man and woman, which is reflected in the continued establishment of God's relationship to his Church - the bride. No my friend, it is not the pastor who has 'snnookered' me, it is the Holy Spirit which has opened my eyes to the truth of His Word.
1 Cor 2:9 But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [[5] who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed].(1)
10 Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the [6] divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny].
11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
Nature is disordered, thus natural man cannot understand, nor accept the wisdom given to us by God through His Spirit. I was led to this sermon, I was shown the truth, in scripture, and now I better understand that which I wrestled with in my 'natural' mind for so long. |
So IOW, what's natural or unnatural is not relevant to you in discussion of the issue? That's a major feat of verbal gymnastics. The rhetorical judges are holding "10.0" rulings across the board for you.
It reminds me of the old lawyer's maxim: "When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the law's against you, argue the facts. When the facts and the law are against you attack the other side."
Prejudice is a difficult thing to overcome. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | So then you are saying the scriptures do not say what they say? |
I can read the text as well as anybody else.
I also have appreciation for 1) the historical foundations of early Christianity, e.g. the rise of the Roman church; 2) the need for early 'believers' to justify beliefs; 3) contemporaneous texts - for example, the Coptic texts of Nag Hammadi or the Apocrypha; 5) Judaism, and the fact that Yeshua was a Jew; 6) the 'historicity' of the Bible stories vis-a-vis other (pagan) stories, e.g. "virgin birth", "resurrection", etc.; and 7) the psychology of religion; 8 ) Jewish mysticism; 9) Christian mysticism; and 10) other (!) religions and religious practices.
Filter all of the above through 11) my own spirituality and 12) my own religious experiences, and maybe you'll get my understanding of what the Bible is saying. 8) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I also have appreciation for 1) the historical foundations of early Christianity, e.g. the rise of the Roman church; 2) the need for early 'believers' to justify beliefs; 3) contemporaneous texts - for example, the Coptic texts of Nag Hammadi or the Apocrypha; 5) Judaism, and the fact that Yeshua was a Jew; 6) the 'historicity' of the Bible stories vis-a-vis other (pagan) stories, e.g. "virgin birth", "resurrection", etc.; and 7) the psychology of religion; 8 ) Jewish mysticism; 9) Christian mysticism; and 10) other (!) religions and religious practices.
Filter all of the above through 11) my own spirituality and 12) my own religious experiences, and maybe you'll get my understanding of what the Bible is saying. |
Yes, I understand this, I used it quite often myself whenever scripture did not agree with something I thought or felt. Now, however, I've confirmed my belief in scripture above all, so-called 'wisdom' of man, and put my trust in the Word of God, not the wishes of man.
DBB:
| Quote: | | IOW, what's natural or unnatural is not relevant to you in discussion of the issue? That's a major feat of verbal gymnastics |
IOW, what man considers 'natural', God considers disordered.
They exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man . . ." (verse 23). ..."Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity" (verse 24). ". . . so that their bodies would be dishonored among them"
Man tells us that it is natural, God tells us that our nature is corrupt. Man exchanged God for corruption and God's truth for his own lies. Those are the facts, the 'extenuating circumstances' are irrelevant because the corruption of our nature is the extenuating circumstance. |
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