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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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 Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: United Methodist Pastor Performs Same Gender Marriages in SF |
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This was in the news, as part of the frenzy there. The easiest source I found was from Institute for Religion and Democracy, a right-wing group seeking dominance in several Protestant denominations including the United Methodists. This guy Mark Toomey is the IRD United Methodist capo da tutti capo so note his opinions as for what he is.
Here's the article:
Sadly Predictable: Methodist Pastor Does San Francisco Gay "Weddings"
Contact: John Lomperis
February 20, 2004
Joining in the homosexual "wedding" frenzy in San Francisco, a United Methodist clergywoman has apparently conducted several such ceremonies this week after the mayor there decided to ignore California law and issue wedding licenses to same-sex couples. The pastor conducted one ceremony in her church and the others at City Hall.
"It is sadly predictable that a United Methodist pastor of that region would eagerly follow the latest secular fad and preside over homosexual nuptials in San Francisco," remarked Mark Tooley, who directs the IRD’s United Methodist committee. The IRD works for theological, political and financial accountability within mainline Protestant denominations.
The Rev. Karen Oliveto announced in her own news releases that she had officiated over the "first gay couple ever married in the sanctuary of a United Methodist church" on February 15. Her February 13 news release reports she presided over five "marriage" ceremonies in San Francisco City Hall in two days. Most of the couples were from Oliveto’s Bethany United Methodist Church.
Oliveto is a long-time leader of pro-homosexuality causes within the United Methodist Church, which officially prohibits its clergy and churches from celebrating same-sex unions and which describes homosexual practice as "incompatible with Christian teaching." In the past, Oliveto has claimed to have conducted dozens of same-sex union ceremonies, in defiance of United Methodist Church policy.
This time, Oliveto claims she is not violating church law because United Methodism’s Book of Discipline prohibits "same sex unions" and not specifically legalized same sex marriage.
Same-sex unions and "marriage," along with other sexual issues (including even sex change operations for clergy), will be debated once again at the United Methodist Church’s governing General Conference, which meets every four years and whose next meeting is this April. However, this is little chance that the church will change its policy on homosexuality. If anything, the church’s demographic shift towards the U.S. south and to Africa is making the church more conservative on moral and theological issues.
The Western Jurisdiction of United Methodism, comprising the West Coast and Rocky Mountain region, is the church’s most friendly towards acceptance of homosexual behavior. It is also the fastest declining part of the denomination. Only about 4 percent of United Methodists reside there. There are nearly 10 million United Methodists, 8.3 million of them living in the U.S.
"Of course, the church’s laws should be upheld, and I pray that Rev. Oliveto’s bishop, Beverly Shamana, will uphold her ecclesial obligations and discipline Rev. Oliveto," Tooley said. "But Rev. Olivet’s participation in the San Francisco frenzy will have little impact upon our denomination, whose future is aligned with robustly orthodox international Christianity, and not with the dying liberal Protestantism to which much of the leadership of West Coast United Methodism adheres."
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Obviously he promotes his viewpoint. Homosexuality is but one of many issues to be in play at the UMC Conference in Pittsburgh in April where there will no doubt be blood on the floor from fites between Toomey and his people and liberal UMs. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The godless left has baited the hook in SF, vainly trying to force Arnie and "W" into Bull Conner's shoes but its a no go. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | The godless left has baited the hook in SF, vainly trying to force Arnie and "W" into Bull Conner's shoes but its a no go. |
I really don't think anybody had any expectations of that of the Governor.
I really don't think characterizing them as "Godless Left" is fair either. Newsom was just elected Mayor in December. He's a conservative Democrat but he almost lost to a Hispanic Green named Matthew Martinez. I think Newsom is a Catholic.
It is an interesting contrast, though: a beaming Mayor surrounded by loving couples while "Christian" protestors shout hateful slogan and have them emblazoned on their shirts and signs, often appearing irrational. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: United Methodist Pastor Performs Same Gender Marriages i |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | This was in the news, as part of the frenzy there. The easiest source I found was from Institute for Religion and Democracy, a right-wing group seeking dominance in several Protestant denominations including the United Methodists. This guy Mark Toomey is the IRD United Methodist capo da tutti capo so note his opinions as for what he is.
Here's the article: |
An interesting article. I understand that there is a similar kerfluffel on the east coast too - Maine, is it?
The difficulty I have with these marriages in California is that the cart has been put before the horse - no legal standing according to California law. I believe had she waited for the state government to enact legislation permitting same-sex marriages, nothing would've happened at the Federal level, including the forthcoming application for a Constitutional amendment...
Of course, Bush seems to be using this as an election ploy, but that is something else.
Regardless, I live in Canada, and there have been numerous same-sex marriages performed here legally. And, one of my children is in a same-sex relationship. I have no problem with either same-sex marriages or my daughter's relationship, regardless (or perhaps in spite of) the Biblical admonitions that will invariably come up here.
I think love is a gift of God, and it would be sacrilegious of me to interfere or judge them... |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: United Methodist Pastor Performs Same Gender Marriages i |
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| Smilin' Jacks wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | This was in the news, as part of the frenzy there. The easiest source I found was from Institute for Religion and Democracy, a right-wing group seeking dominance in several Protestant denominations including the United Methodists. This guy Mark Toomey is the IRD United Methodist capo da tutti capo so note his opinions as for what he is.
Here's the article: |
An interesting article. I understand that there is a similar kerfluffel on the east coast too - Maine, is it?
The difficulty I have with these marriages in California is that the cart has been put before the horse - no legal standing according to California law. I believe had she waited for the state government to enact legislation permitting same-sex marriages, nothing would've happened at the Federal level, including the forthcoming application for a Constitutional amendment...
Of course, Bush seems to be using this as an election ploy, but that is something else.
Regardless, I live in Canada, and there have been numerous same-sex marriages performed here legally. And, one of my children is in a same-sex relationship. I have no problem with either same-sex marriages or my daughter's relationship, regardless (or perhaps in spite of) the Biblical admonitions that will invariably come up here.
I think love is a gift of God, and it would be sacrilegious of me to interfere or judge them... |
I see your point. Barney Frank, the gay Congressman, supposedly called up Gavin Newsom and cussed him out because he felt the time wasn't right.
I'd say it's a lot like the destruction of the Berlin Wall. The elders are all "let's be reasonable" and the teenagers are out there with sledgehammers chipping away. Social change comes at the bottom, not the top. Gavin Newsom's an unlikely hero-a smarmy "Golden Boy" local politico who's the new Mayor after a very close election in which he was the protege of the outgoing Mayor, an ambitious putz with a socialite wife. But sometimes even somebody like that can do the right thing.
Your attitude's mighty reasonable, similar to my Dad's. Of course he's a minister in a divided denomination and he has ongoing battles with a right-wing parishioner over stuff like this. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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This is already backfiring on GeeDubya: the two leading contenders for his job, Kerry and Edwards, are saying this is a distraction from real issues like healthcare and jobs, and it's sticking.
He had to do something: his religious right supporters were threatening to not show up at the polls. Still it's obvious his heart's not in this. Poor guy. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: United Methodist Pastor Performs Same Gender Marriages i |
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| Quote: | | I see your point. Barney Frank, the gay Congressman, supposedly called up Gavin Newsom and cussed him out because he felt the time wasn't right. |
Is Barney Frank a Congressman in California? (pardon my ignorance - I follow American politics, but only so far 8))
| Quote: | | Social change comes at the bottom, not the top. |
Couldn't agree more...But sad, ain't it?
| Quote: | | Your attitude's mighty reasonable, similar to my Dad's. Of course he's a minister in a divided denomination and he has ongoing battles with a right-wing parishioner over stuff like this. |
Give him an "atta boy" for me. 
This situation brings to mind an article published by James Madison, now part of the "Federalist Papers". I don't think I could do justice to his words, but in it he presents the idea that the rights of the majority are ensured by defending the rights of the few. His idea was that minorities and the weak need protection simply because, at any time, any one of us could ourselves become marginalized and our rights threatened... |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: United Methodist Pastor Performs Same Gender Marriages i |
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| Smilin' Jacks wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | I see your point. Barney Frank, the gay Congressman, supposedly called up Gavin Newsom and cussed him out because he felt the time wasn't right. |
Is Barney Frank a Congressman in California? (pardon my ignorance - I follow American politics, but only so far 8)) |
Masachusetts. If Kerry is elected he is going to run for Kerry's Senate seat.
The U.S. has three *Man's Man* in Congress-that say so. Besides Frank, there's Jim Kolbe, a moderate Republican from Tuscon, Arizona, and Tammy Baldwin, a Democrat from Madison, Wisconsin. There are "rumors" about several others.
| Quote: | | Your attitude's mighty reasonable, similar to my Dad's. Of course he's a minister in a divided denomination and he has ongoing battles with a right-wing parishioner over stuff like this. |
Give him an "atta boy" for me. [/QUOTE]
Thanks.
| Quote: | | This situation brings to mind an article published by James Madison, now part of the "Federalist Papers". I don't think I could do justice to his words, but in it he presents the idea that the rights of the majority are ensured by defending the rights of the few. His idea was that minorities and the weak need protection simply because, at any time, any one of us could ourselves become marginalized and our rights threatened... |
Very good point, of course, we have had a hard time learning it in the U.S. the Puritans came here for religious freedom-only to deny religious freedom to others. They ran the Baptists under Roger Williams out of Massachusetts and into Rhode Island. And they had a little something called the Salem Witch Trials too. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The godless left's attack on America is being shouldered by activist judges that nullify anything the conflicts with the godless left's agenda. Liberals attack the meaning of words, calling Dean a conservative after Dean said Kerry was part of the Republican wing of the Democratic Party. Now, the Mayor of SF is called conservative as he deconstructs state law. Words for the liberals have no meaning. Alone does not mean alone, and who knows the meaning of is. Homosexual activity is not condemned in the Bible because according to the liberal attack weapon, the words do not mean what they say. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | The godless left's attack on America is being shouldered by activist judges that nullify anything the conflicts with the godless left's agenda. Liberals attack the meaning of words, calling Dean a conservative after Dean said Kerry was part of the Republican wing of the Democratic Party. Now, the Mayor of SF is called conservative as he deconstructs state law. Words for the liberals have no meaning. Alone does not mean alone, and who knows the meaning of is. Homosexual activity is not condemned in the Bible because according to the liberal attack weapon, the words do not mean what they say. |
Seems like you use the phrase "godless left" like in the 1950s extremists called the Soviets "godless communists" with the emphasis on the adjective. Such things were done to manipulate people, including the addition of the phrase "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, strictly as a matter of political propagandizing. It is true that officially Marxist-Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism, etc.-all versions of communist ideology-have official atheism as a component, albeit a minor one. Marx was of the opinion, often accurate, that "religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich". Certainly while we have a "Religious Left" that's impotent in terms of power, what passes for "The Left" in America is mostly secularist, however, that's not what this issue is about. Cal Thomas coined the phrase "Pagan Left" as a counterbalance to the "Religious Right" but like your phrasing, it distorts. Certainly some on the Left or Liberals are Neo-Pagan or Wiccan, but so are some conservatives. Wicca in particular has become popular with service members in our armed forces, hardly a group with many adherents of "The Left".
Very few political players are consistent in terms of ideology. Dean's characterization of Kerry was based on Kerry's initial support of the Iraq War. Dean himself had quite a conservative record in fiscal affairs as Governor of Vermont. The same is true for President Clinton and Senator Clinton, Vice President Gore, Senator Lieberman, and so many others associated with the conservative Democratic Leadership Council.
Read news reports of the Mayoral Campaign in San Francisco concluded just in December: Newsom was quite clearly the conservative in the race and was behind in the polls to his principal opponent, City Councilman Matt Gonzales who belongs to the lefty Green Party. Newsom eked out a narrow victory.
I view some far right and militia websites whose denizens are convinced President Bush is a liberal dedicated to the New World Order which includes as they see it subordinating national soverignity to the UN. There's some truth to it-certainly Bush, Clinton, Kerry et al have more similarities than differences.
Much of the excessive rhetoric of thos opposed to social change has much more to do with their own anxieties than the meaning of scripture. In the 1950s opponents of racial integration used the exact same rhetoric-citing the Bible and thousands of years of tradition, to support their view-that opponents of acceptance of LGBTs as people of dignity and worth are doing today. It's rather amazing to see what happens to those who oppose progress after having endured defeat. Some like George Wallace expressed genuine regret for the role he played; others like Strom Thurmond never apologized but dropped racist rhetoric in favor of other forms of opposing human advancement. How this plays out in the current imbroligio will be most interesting. Fifty years from now it is likely that such as James Dobson will have their legacy sugarcoated by their successors so that anyone studying his work using only sources from his organization will be surprised to learn he ever said such hateful things as he has.
Van, the Left and the liberals (not the same thing) have no monopoly on the manipulation of language for their purposes. All sides do that. Continuing discussion of the meanings of words and events can be useful to our understanding so thanks for contributing. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I do not think any member of the godless left is not a liberal extremist. You cannot go by what they say, for they will say anything they calculate will advance their political agenda. Hence Kerry is on every side of every issue.
They practice the politics of personal destruction, calling their opponents bigots, and vainly they try to fit the opponents of homosexual activity into Bull Conner's shoes.
Vile is another word that has no meaning for liberal extremists pushing the agenda of the godless left. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Okay!
Those shoes must fit like gloves! |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Okay! Those shoes must fit like gloves! |
Isn't language wonderful when even statements such as this can make sense? |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vainly the godless left tries to fit their opponents into Bull Conner's racist shoes but it seems as the far left embraces corrupted language to peddle fiction they sound more like "I have a scream" than "I have a dream". |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Vainly the godless left (...) |
Who are they? 8) |
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