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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:44 am Post subject: Believing without seeing |
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| Many times, someone wrote: | | Evolution is bogus, because we've never actually witnessed one species change into another. |
But is that requirement fair, or is it simply the product of minds that are already decided, and not the result of reasoned thought?
Consider this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4302550/
No one has seen this black hole. No one (to the best of our knowledge) ever can. But does anyone doubt that this thing exists?
It is possible to draw conclusions based on indirect observation. That is, we can reasonably conclude that there is a black hole there, because of the way matter in its vicinity behaves. Likewise, we can reasonably conclude that evolution is plausible, because of the evidence we see in fossils, because of the ways different species interact, because of the way genetic material behaves, etc.
I'm not saying that this, by itself, proves evolution. But to say that evolution is disproven by a lack of direct observation is at best unscientific, and probably insincere as well. |
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Ron Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
      Posts: 750 Location: home, wa, usa
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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The theory behind a black hole is the idea that if enough mass is in one location, the gravity would be so great that the escape velocity would be 186,000 miles per second so that even light could not escape. This, of course, is assuming that light can be effected by gravity. No one has ever seen a black hole since no light could escape one if it existed.
The problem black holes are supposed to fix is this: if the big bang theory were true, the matter should be evenly distributed in space. Since matter is not evenly distributed in space (we have clumps of matter called galaxies then zillions of miles of nothing between) the believers in the big bang theory are trying to explain why. They are trying to say: "There is matter in between the clumps but we can't see it because it is in black holes." Actually, they are arguing from a lack of evidence not from evidence. This is a poor position to be in when trying to prove your case in a court of law.
I don’t know if black holes exist or not, but their existence is not proven.
| Eddy Tiner wrote: | | ...we can reasonably conclude that evolution is plausible, because of the evidence we see in fossils, because of the ways different species interact, because of the way genetic material behaves... |
How do you reasonably conclude these things? Through faulty theory thinly disguised as science.
The age of fossils? Who determined this age?
How is it that species interact that would lead you to this reasonable conclusion? Has at any time one species interacted with a species of a different kind?
And just how is it that genetic material behaves that would bring about this conclusion?
Many unanswered questions we find upon close examination of so much supposed science. Grand theories continually thrust at us by the media in an attempt to discredit the Word of God.
Another thread asked the question how we might envision Satan, the "great liar", being able to fool the vast majority of the population. I submit here that he is doing a grand job in this very arena of "scientic enlightenment"! |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Has at any time one species interacted with a species of a different kind? |
The horse and the donkey. They are different species. And clearly the Bible considers them to be different kinds, since it refers to them separately and distinctly.
Yet they can breed to produce typically sterile offspring -- mules (or hinnies).
This is exactly the kind of interaction that evolutionary theory both explains and predicts. |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Another thread asked the question how we might envision Satan, the "great liar", being able to fool the vast majority of the population. I submit here that he is doing a grand job in this very arena of "scientic enlightenment"! |
Interestingly, when I read this note in the other thread, I had the exact opposite thought. I submit that every time a person accepts the words of man as the inerrant message of God, Satan rejoices.
For millennia, Satan rejoiced that man had whole-heartedly embraced slavery, since it was condoned in God's word.
For most of recorded history, Satan has rejoiced as societies took God's word literally, and treated women as nothing more than property.
The Great Liar using the Bible as a tool!?
Yep. I guess Satan works in mysterious ways, too. |
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Ron Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
      Posts: 750 Location: home, wa, usa
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Eddy Tiner wrote: |
The horse and the donkey. They are different species. And clearly the Bible considers them to be different kinds, since it refers to them separately and distinctly.
Yet they can breed to produce typically sterile offspring -- mules (or hinnies).
This is exactly the kind of interaction that evolutionary theory both explains and predicts. |
The horse and the donkey are NOT different kinds (or species in modern language). The Bible refers to Abraham and Sarah as seperate and distinct from eachother, Adam and Eve also. They are NOT different species.
Any first year zoological student knows you can mate a horse and a donkey. Be realistic. Can you mate a horse and a dog? And even when you mate two variations within a kind, you NEVER get new genetic material, only same material reorganized. Now you already knew this. |
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Ron Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
      Posts: 750 Location: home, wa, usa
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| You did not comment on the major point of your thread to which I replied. What do you think about the "evidence" for black holes? It is interesting, is it not, that "science" uses lack of evidence to support their theory? Now how would this "scientific" community treat my witness when I base my belief on something I cannot see, but yet is clearly evident through His creation? We all know how far this flies for them! About this _ far. |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | The horse and the donkey are NOT different kinds (or species in modern language). |
So you believe the horse and the donkey are considered the same KIND in the Bible? And that they are considered the same SPECIES today?
Are you serious? |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | You did not comment on the major point of your thread to which I replied. What do you think about the "evidence" for black holes? |
Actually, I thought I did comment on it. I'm talking about indirect observation. We accept things as true based on indirect observation all the time.
I've never seen a radio wave. I'm reasonably certain they exist based on the way my radio behaves. Do you believe in radio?
I've never actually seen Pluto. I believe it exists. In fact, we figured out it exists, and even computed its size and orbit, long before anyone saw it in a telescope, based on how the other outer planets behaved. Do you believe in Pluto?
I've never seen oxygen or hydrogen. But I believe that they exist, and I believe that they combine chemically just like my teachers told me they do. Do you believe in water? |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Any first year zoological student knows you can mate a horse and a donkey. Be realistic. |
Okay, how about tigers and lions? In captivity, they can be bred to produce ligers and tigons (which one depends on who the mother is). Are you prepared to call tigers and lions the same species? The same kind? Do you think the Bible considers them the same kind?
Male offspring of this cross-mating are always sterile. Females are occasionally capable of reproducing. Truly bizarre. Yet this is EXACTLY the kind of thing predicted by evolutionary theory. |
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Ron Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
      Posts: 750 Location: home, wa, usa
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Eddy Tiner wrote: | Okay, how about tigers and lions? In captivity, they can be bred to produce ligers and tigons (which one depends on who the mother is). Are you prepared to call tigers and lions the same species? The same kind? Do you think the Bible considers them the same kind?
Male offspring of this cross-mating are always sterile. Females are occasionally capable of reproducing. Truly bizarre. Yet this is EXACTLY the kind of thing predicted by evolutionary theory. |
TIGER,
largest member of the cat family (q.v.) , Panthera tigris
LION,
member of the cat family (q.v.) , Panthera leo
Yes I, the Bible, and science would most certainly consider these within the same kind.
Your observations above are correct in that these animals, along with the mule, produced from a horse and a donkey, are generally sterile.
What conclusion this leads me to, however is that a grand Designer has put into place safety mechanisms to keep the species healthy and multiplying. I see this as great evidence of God's sovereign control over His creation. I see no applicable evolutionary theory here. |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | Yes I, the Bible, and science would most certainly consider these within the same kind.
Your observations above are correct in that these animals, along with the mule, produced from a horse and a donkey, are generally sterile.
What conclusion this leads me to, however is that a grand Designer has put into place safety mechanisms to keep the species healthy and multiplying. |
If tigers and lions are of the same kind, then why do they need a "safety mechanism" to keep them from breeding? Animals of the same kind are supposed to reproduce, "according to their kind." |
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Eddy Tiner Ferret
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
    Posts: 120 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | TIGER, largest member of the cat family (q.v.) , Panthera tigris
LION, member of the cat family (q.v.) , Panthera leo
Yes I, the Bible, and science would most certainly consider these within the same kind. |
Then do please tell me Ron, considering:
| Gen 6:19 wrote: | | And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. |
What went into the ark? Two tigers? Two lions? One of each? And does this kind include the rest of genus Panthera, as well -- leopards, jaguars, cheetahs, etc.? |
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Van King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
     Posts: 2646 Location: San Clemente, California
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:58 am Post subject: Evolution |
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It has been asserted that evolution is plausible. Now that would depend upon the meaning of evolution and plausible as used in the statement.
If we say that life forms changing over time is evolution, then that is certainly plausible. But if we say the change is gradual rather than abrupt the premise becomes less plausible, and if we say the change is the result of mutation and environmental pressure, even less plausible. Have we observed micro-evolution, the adaption of life forms to changes in the environment? Yes. But the extrapolation of this observation to account for the difference in the life forms found in fossels and the life forms now is questionable at best.
Now the theory of Evolution today is not the same as the theory of Evolution 100 years ago. We have Neo-Darwinsim rather than the throughly discredited Darwinsim. Human babies as they develop in the womb do not go through evolutionary phases that mark the past.
Modern biology has pretty much discredited the proofs or evidence for the theory that were offered in the past. What we know is that many of the life forms of the past have died out, and most of the large mammals of today are not represented in the fossel record of the past.
My position is simple, the answer to the origin of the species is God did it. Just how He did it I do not know, but the assertion that others do know seems unlikely, even implausible. |
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Mender Little Guppy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
   Posts: 30
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | The theory behind a black hole is the idea that if enough mass is in one location, the gravity would be so great that the escape velocity would be 186,000 miles per second so that even light could not escape. This, of course, is assuming that light can be effected by gravity. No one has ever seen a black hole since no light could escape one if it existed.
The problem black holes are supposed to fix is this: if the big bang theory were true, the matter should be evenly distributed in space. Since matter is not evenly distributed in space (we have clumps of matter called galaxies then zillions of miles of nothing between) the believers in the big bang theory are trying to explain why. They are trying to say: "There is matter in between the clumps but we can't see it because it is in black holes." Actually, they are arguing from a lack of evidence not from evidence. This is a poor position to be in when trying to prove your case in a court of law. |
Yes, gravity does effect light. It can stretch it, compress it, and bend it. And black holes do not explain why matter is not evenly distributed in space. Quantum jitters during the very early universe do, and these effects were magnified by gravity. Noone is saying the space between galaxies is filled with black holes, if it was we would not be able to see other galaxies. And you speak of lack of evidence? What about evidence for creation? I fail to see any.
| Van wrote: | | Human babies as they develop in the womb do not go through evolutionary phases that mark the past. |
Darwin never claimed any such thing. |
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RevJP Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
     Posts: 6845 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Evolution is bogus, because we've never actually witnessed one species change into another.
But is that requirement fair, or is it simply the product of minds that are already decided, and not the result of reasoned thought? |
It is absolutely fair. When speaking of the scientific method and what can be considered fact, something has to be observable and repeatable, Evolution of man from ape has not been observed, nor repeated.
If science wants to state its religious beliefs as scientific fact it should then play by its own rules. |
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