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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Here's another one for blood: after a woman becomes pregnant, the fetus lives off of her blood. If the fetuses were to 'abstain from blood', human life would not be possible.
If you take the 'abstain from blood' doctrine to its (il)logical conclusion, the human race would become extinct.
The only way I can see you getting around this is if you make the argument that fetuses don't have souls yet (implying that abortions are ok). |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: |
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P,
| P123... wrote: | | So in other words, Jesus' blood is a lot like the blood for a transfusion, which also gives life... |
No. Not 1 bit the same. Jesus life he laid down for us bought back what Adam lost. Everlasting life. Jesus shed blood symbolises that sacrifice. This was done in harmony with God's will.
Taking a blood transfusion is violating God's word. It doesn't mean life everlasting. Neither does it necessarily extend life in this system. Many Jehovah's Witnesses, who were told they NEEDED a blood transfusion, or they would die, still lived. My Father had open heart surgery without a blood transfusion and lived. Conversly, some who didn't NEED a blood transfusion, but was given one anyway (this was a common practice in the past, but not now), died as a result, or contracted a disease. Even one of the Popes received hepetitus from a blood transfusion.
| P123... wrote: | | Here's another one for blood: after a woman becomes pregnant, the fetus lives off of her blood. If the fetuses were to 'abstain from blood', human life would not be possible. |
Sir, blood isn't transfered from the mother to the fetus. Nutrients and certain other things are exchanged. Just like the mother's blood supply furnishes the breasts with what they need to develop milk, blood is not transfering from the mother to the baby. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
Sir, blood isn't transfered from the mother to the fetus. Nutrients and certain other things are exchanged. Just like the mother's blood supply furnishes the breasts with what they need to develop milk, blood is not transfering from the mother to the baby. |
You're wrong. During early pregnancy, the zygote lives off of the blood-rich lining of the uterus. This is why women have periods; the lining builds up in order to provide a blood-rich layer in which a fertilized egg can embed itself and survive before a placenta has formed through which nutrients can pass from the mother's blood as you describe.
The little zygote literally feeds off of its mother's blood. Get rid of this, and the human race goes extinct. The whole idea of 'abastaining from blood' in any kind of absolute way really doesn't make any sense at all. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1017
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | TBax wrote: |
Sir, blood isn't transfered from the mother to the fetus. Nutrients and certain other things are exchanged. Just like the mother's blood supply furnishes the breasts with what they need to develop milk, blood is not transfering from the mother to the baby. |
You're wrong. During early pregnancy, the zygote lives off of the blood-rich lining of the uterus. This is why women have periods; the lining builds up in order to provide a blood-rich layer in which a fertilized egg can embed itself and survive before a placenta has formed through which nutrients can pass from the mother's blood as you describe.
The little zygote literally feeds off of its mother's blood. Get rid of this, and the human race goes extinct. The whole idea of 'abastaining from blood' in any kind of absolute way really doesn't make any sense at all. |
The endometrium is basically a sticky sponge lining soaked with nutrients and blood vessels which allows the fertilized egg to stick-on and draw initial nutrition. The endometrium becomes part of the placenta.
It is error to think that this blood soaked lining becomes part of the fetus' main blood supply. The fetus forms his own blood. During pregnancy the placenta forms blood vessels in the endometrium like roots of a tree. The mother further develops the endometrium likewise. Furthermore the blood supplies of both mother and fetus are separate. The placenta provides the interchange of nutrients and oxygen from the mother's blood to fetus' blood while it provides the interchange of wastes and carbon dioxide from the fetus' blood to the mother's blood. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: |
It is error to think that this blood soaked lining becomes part of the fetus' main blood supply.
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I never said that blood gets transferred. I said that the fetus lives off of the blood in the uterine lining, and that this happens until the placenta forms. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6842
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Taking a blood transfusion is violating God's word. |
I would love for you to show me this from scripture, in context. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Taking a blood transfusion is violating God's word. |
I would love for you to show me this from scripture, in context. |
Trust me RevJP, we've asked for the same thing... |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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JP,
Hi.
Do you believe obeying God is more important than your life in this system of things?
LIFE IS SACRED. We need to preserve it to the best of our ability, but that doesn't mean going against God's commands we find in the Bible. God's word tells us to ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD.
It is not just for health reasons.God views blood as sacred. This is God's command given to Noah. This command predates the law covenant, therefore even though this command also became part of this Law that ended with Christ, this command is not part of that Law that ended. NOTICE AND READ CAREFULLY
GEN 9:4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man.
Do you get the idea.The blood belongs to God and he asks it back.God views blood as sacred and belonging to him.We are not to eat it.Again this command was not done away with as the 1st century Christians included this command among THE NECESSARY THINGS! The context of Acts here, is an issue came up about whether the Christians needed to be circumcised. The 1st century governing body got together and decided that Christians are to observe these NECESSARY THINGS.
Acts 15:20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.
THESE ARE THE NECESSARY THINGS FOR CHRISTIANS,EVEN TODAY
1)abstain from things polluted by idols
2)abstain from fornication
3)abstain from what is strangled (therefore improperly bleed meat)
4)abstain from blood.
Notice they said abstain. Just because blood transfusions injects blood directly into the viens, this doesn't alter God's word. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| What about when women have periods? That is hardly abstaining from blood. Do periods make women sinners? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5887
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | abstain from things polluted by idols |
This is a dietary restriction. You aren't supposed to eat food which has been sacrificed to idols.
| TBax wrote: | | abstain from fornication |
This is the one non-dietary restriction, a behavioral restriction.
| TBax wrote: | | abstain from what is strangled (therefore improperly bleed meat) |
Dietary restriction.
| TBax wrote: | | abstain from blood. |
Dietary restriction, just like Genesis 9:4.
Because they are mentioned collectively, the word "abstain" is used.
Not to mention that in context, 15:20 isn't about salvation, it is simply an entreatment that people not cause too much friction with Jews.
15:19 “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
15:20 but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.
15:21 For Moses has had those who proclaim him in every town from ancient times, because he is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
What part of that says that one should abstain from blood, at the cost of your salvation?
| P1234567890 wrote: | | What about when women have periods? That is hardly abstaining from blood. Do periods make women sinners? |
Well you're not supposed to touch them during that time, as they're unclean. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: | | What about when women have periods? That is hardly abstaining from blood. Do periods make women sinners? |
Well you're not supposed to touch them during that time, as they're unclean. |
In that case, shouldn't all Christian women advertise when aunt flo is visiting, lest someone accidentally shake their hands? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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P,
Your reasoning is breaking down considerably. Read on to see what I mean.
| P123... wrote: | | What about when women have periods? That is hardly abstaining from blood. Do periods make women sinners? |
The Bible doesn't say you cannot bleed. You are losing your focus.
FFT,
You show this before. You cannot understand spiritual things.
Abstain from things polluted by idols is not a dietary restriction, it is a spiritual restriction. Foods sacrificed to idols is polluted spiritually not physically.
I reject the atheist interpretation.
| FFT wrote: | | Well you're not supposed to touch them during that time, as they're unclean. |
Are you going to drink the bloody discharge? You are off topic. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
| FFT wrote: | | Well you're not supposed to touch them during that time, as they're unclean. |
Are you going to drink the bloody discharge? You are off topic. |
Is FFT right or wrong when he says that the Bible says women should be avoided during their periods?
I think that this is not off-topic. It has to do with what the Bible says about blood.
Besides, YOU are the one with the liberal interpretation of 'abstain'. We are the ones saying that 'abstain' only pertains to eating. YOU are the one who says that its scope is much broader, and now you're saying that eating is all that matters.
Please try to be consistent.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
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The term "unclean" with a menstrating woman, is part of the mosic law, which was done away with, when Jesus died.
Unless you are drinking the bloody discharge, or injecting it into your viens, you are off topic. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5887
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | The term "unclean" with a menstrating woman, is part of the mosic law, which was done away with, when Jesus died. |
And yet you would have us believe that we are not only not allowed to drink blood, but not get transfusions either?
Did you read what I said earlier about the context of the Acts verse? The bottom half of this post. |
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