Jehovah's Witnesses, A Cult???

metothezero · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:11 pm Post subject: Jehovah's Witnesses, A Cult???

Mijt1 and Buckley,

I started this paticular topic for the two of you. You do not know how long I have wanted to speak with a Witness personally online. I have friends who are members, and I have had meetings with an elder from the Kingdom hall in my City, but I think it is so much easier to post on this Board and get a discussion going.

First off I would like to ask the two of you to discuss your beliefs with me. If I propose something that is believed to be a belief of your religion, and yet it is clearly not, please feel free to tell me where I am wrong, So I can correct my sources. I do believe that all of the beliefs that I know the Watchtower teachers are that of what I have seen from your own publications. I have not gotten them off of websites from exmembers, but from your books, and your meetings. But If I have been informed, I will obligingly change these. Likewise, I respectively ask that if you are uninformed about my beliefs, or Christendom's in general, would you kindly not fault us for your misinformation? I think that is only fair.

Now onto the good stuff, let us start with a fundamental groundwork that we should lay our discussion upon. You believe that the New World Translation is the correct translation of the Word of God, I do not agree, but I will comply. As long as you agree that it is the inerrant, inspired Word of God, you understand? I do not want us to get into a discussion and then halfway down the line something arises that you say well the Bible is full of errors. But being the faithful servants you are, I do not see this as happening. Secondly, let us distinguish between the teachings of our religions, and the people who practice our religions. EVERY religion can be faulted by the practitioners of that religion, but not every one can be faulted by the doctrine that it teaches. You understand? We can go on and on all day about the Early works of Christendom, their Crusades and Witchtrials, just as we can go on about the practices of John Rutherford and the Earlier Witnesses, but just because there have been wrong doers in our beliefs, does not sour our entire belief. I will not fault your Religion for Rutherford's actions or teachings, as I would respectively ask that you do not fault mine for the actions of the Early Christians. Is this a fair agreement?

Now I would like to ask you two a question. If the Watchtower teachings, the Jehovah's Witness teachings are the true teachings of Yahweh, then they should be clearly different than ANY other religions. Now granted there may be a religion out there who practices a thing or two that are similair to the Watchtower's, but there has to be a clear distinguishable feature that seperates the teachings of the Watchtower from ANY other religion. Do you know what this is? I have studied your beliefs, and have yet to find it. Being the members that you are, perhaps you could inform me.

To any other wishing to participate in this discussion, feel free to chime in, but I respectively ask that you do not lower yourself to demeaning actions, and try to stick to the guidelines that I have set forth, and of course stay within the guidelines that have been set forth upon this board.

mijt1 · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:29 am Post subject:

Just for the time being at least I would prefer to do it by email.

If you agree my email address is mijt1962@yahoo.co.uk

Nobby · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:56 am Post subject:

Hi mijt1,
Have you ever used the PM's (private messages) a above under the words You have no nessages that is completely private.
It works just like an e-mail & if you have it marked in your Profile will drop a sall page down telling you when you have a message.

Or we have a One on One forum which I could easly make a One on Two Everyone can read but only the one's allowed can post.

Just for your information,

Ron · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:56 pm Post subject:

I can appreciate the privacy e-mail affords but I would so wish to join this discussion in an open forum as this. Could you consider undertaking some apologetic conversations of JW doctrine?

I have found it very important, and adhering to Scripture to know what you believe, why you believe it and how to defend it. By interacting in conversations, both online and in person, I have not only been able to set the Lord's message in my heart but through the Holy Spirit working in others, they have come to know Christ Jesus, our Savior.

I do hope you consider this evangelistic undertaking.

mijt1 · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:22 pm Post subject:

Ron · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:50 pm Post subject:

Nobby · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:44 pm Post subject: note

Hi mijt1,
We have two Ron's on this board. The x-JW's User name is rondoggy! many times called ron! OK? When he types ron he mostly uses a low case "r" ron.
God's Blessings.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hi mijt1,

YOU SAID:
"If my religion is false then how come its the only one to be completely united, enough to be able to preach the same message worldwide. How come its the only religion to not go to war. How come palestinian and Israeli witnesses worship together? In Ireland former Catholic and Protestant witnesses worship together. In the balkans witnesses from different ethncic backgrounds protected eachother while while Christians and muslims slaughtered eachother. Believing in the trinity did not stop catholics from two different tribes hacking eachother to death in Rwanda. Yet members of this so called dangerous cult of jehovahs witnesses died trying to protect eachother no matter what tribe they were from."

Doesn't Christianity "preach the same message worldwide"? Don't the Mormons? With respect mijt1, it appears to me that you only the see the good of your organization, and the bad in any other religion. Real life is not as black and white as you would have it. You mention Israeli and Palestinian JWs worshipping together. Guess what? Israeli and Palestinian Christians come together for worship in Israel too. Why do you ignore this fact? Please answer.

It's not fair to condemn all of Christianity ("Christendom") because of certain isolated events that get a lot of press in WT literature.

You said that JWs are "the only religion to not go to war." This is simply not true. There are numerous pacifist denominations, and many individual Christians who are pacifist despite their denominational affiliations. Did you really not know this? Or is it just convenient for you to "forget"? Please answer.

You said "believing in the trinity did not stop catholics from two different tribes hacking each other to death in Rwanda." But I can say that 'believing in JW doctrine did not stop the hundreds (thousands, by some accounts) of Jehovah's witnesses who are guilty of child molestation.' How about this fact? Why do you measure your own religion with a different set of scales than any other religion? Please answer.

YOU SAID:
"Is it possible that the reason JW's differ from other religions in the way I have described above, and the reason they are united and preaching in fiulfilment of mathew 24:14 just might be because they have god's aproval and they have applied Jusus command to have love among themselves."

You would first have to prove that JWs are different from other religions. You have not done this. How are they different?

Please read my previous post on the other thread.

Sincerely,

Ap.

Ron · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:58 pm Post subject:

An interesting thread. Let us begin with some definition of cult.

What Is a Cult?
A cult is a perversion, a distortion of biblical Christianity, and as such, rejects the historic teachings of the Christian Church. The apostle Paul warned there would be false Christs and a false gospel that would attempt to deceive the true church and the world:
“For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully ... for such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising
themselves as apostles of Christ and no wonder for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, NASB).

Walter Martin gives us a good definition of a cult when he says: “A cult, then, is a group or people polarized around someone's interpretation of the Bible and is characterized by major deviations from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith,
particularly the fact that God became man in Jesus Christ.

Now lets look at the beginnings of Jehovah's Witness. I will gladly post any correction if brought to my attention on the following information.

History
Officially known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witnesses are a product of the life work of Charles Taze Russell, born February 16, 1852, near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

In 1870, while still in his teens and without formal theological education, Russell organized a Bible class whose members eventually made him "Pastor."

In 1879 he founded the magazine Zion's Watchtower in which he published his own unique interpretation of the Bible, and in 1886, the first volume of seven books (six written by Russell) entitled The Millennial Dawn was published. (These later were retitled Studies in the Scriptures.)

By the time of his death in 1916, "Pastor" Russell, according to the Watchtower, traveled more than a million miles, gave more than thirty thousand sermons, and wrote books totaling over fifty thousand pages.

A few months after the death of Charles Taze Russell, the society's legal counselor, Joseph Franklin Rutherford, became the second President of the Watchtower Society. It was under his leadership that the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" was adopted.

Rutherford died in 1942 and was succeeded by Nathan H. Knorr. It was during Knorr's presidency that the society increased from 115,000 to more than two million members. In 1961, under Knorr's leadership, the society produced its own English translation of the Bile entitled The
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Claims of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Jehovah's Witnesses are zealous and sincere, and they claim to accept the Bible as their only authority. However, their theology denies every cardinal belief of historic Christianity including the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus Christ, His bodily resurrection, salvation by grace through faith,
and eternal punishment of the wicked.

The Watchtower has this to say about itself-
“It is God's sole collective channel for the flow of biblical truth to men on earth.”

Source of Authority

Note the following statement by "Pastor" Russell: “If the six volumes of Scripture Studies are practically the Bible, topically arranged with Bible
proof texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes "the Bible in an arranged form, that is to say, they are not mere comments on the Bible, buy they are practically the Bible itself. Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by
itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has became familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years -if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness, On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references and had not read a page of the Bible as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”

Although the Watchtower contends that the Scriptures are their final authority, they constantly misuse the Scriptures to establish their own peculiar beliefs. This is accomplished chiefly by quoting texts out of context while omitting other passages relevant to the subject. For all practical purposes their publications take precedence over the Scriptures.

The first of many deviations from orthodox Chrsitianity are The Trinity and The Deity of Christ. The following is a brief overview of Watchtower positions.

Trinity
The Watchtower makes it clear they do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. "The trinity doctrine was not conceived by Jesus or the early Christians .... The plain truth is that this is another of Satan's attempts to keep the God-fearing person from learning the truth of Jehovah and
His Son Christ Jesus." In Watchtower theology neither Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit is God.

Jesus Christ
In the theological system of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Christ is not God in human flesh, but rather a created being. "Jesus, the Christ, a created individual, is the second greatest personage of the Universe. Jehovah God and Jesus together constitute the superior authorities."
"He was a god, but not the Almighty God, who is Jehovah."
"If Jesus were God, then during Jesus' death God was dead in the
grave." "The truth of the matter is that the word is Christ Jesus, who did have a beginning."

The denial of the deity of Christ is nothing new in the history of the church. It is a revival of the ancient heresy known as Arianism (named after the fourth-century A.D. heretic Arius.) Arianism teaches that the Son was of a substance different from the Father and was, in fact, created.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, in an attempt to demonstrate that Jesus Christ is not Jehovah God, appeal to the Bible to substantiate their beliefs. However, it is the Bible that contradicts their theology, revealing it to be both unbiblical and non-Christian.

As it is late I will pick up on this at a later time. I will post the Scriptural references used by JW's to substantiate their claims and proper contextual and grammatical translations of the texts used along with some historical perspective and commentary with the verses. I will at any time be most interested in current JW members to refute any material I post.

Please know this is not malice or attack, but an attempt to shed light on the improper uses of God's Word to further the JW membership and I pray that those reading with be enlightened.

Da Blonde Bombshell · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:25 am Post subject:

My problem is I've had little luck finding a cogent and objective definition of "cult" to learn and apply toward sects to determine what is and isn't one. We have Margaret Singer's book Cults in Our Midst which is good as far as it goes but it is clear Singer, a psychologist, broke professional objectivity to take sides with family members.

To search for good material in Christian bookstores is like fishing for Salmon in the Amazon-it ain't there. What you do find is various polemics most of which define a "cult" as "a religion with which I disagree". For instance, I found one tome which claimed Unitarian Universalists were a cult-yet there is no religious association farther from what we perceive as a cult, among all of humankind.

To me what defines a cult is attempts by the group to control the members. Thus, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons would be cults, but so would 90% of fundamentalist bodies. Thus, to me, fundamentalists flaying LDSers and JWs as cults is merely an instance of the pot calling the kettle black.

Da Blonde Bombshell · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:32 am Post subject:

Ron · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:10 am Post subject:

Nobby · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:30 am Post subject:

Thanks Ron,
Good answer. Wink

Ron · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:22 pm Post subject:

There has been talk in other threads of the relevance of particular Scripture in the modern world. I wanted to address a few words to this and as our discussion here has leaned toward orthodoxy, I felt this was within keeping on this thread.

The Encarta World English Dictionary defines relevance as "applicability to or connection with real-world issues, present-day events, or the current state of society."

By its very nature, the Gospel has total relevance to the real-world issues of people's lives (their problems and needs), present-day events (what is happening in the world around people) and the current state of society (the problems and needs within society as a whole).

It is important not to confuse Message and Method. The Method (how we communicate to the unbeliever) must always be relevant to the Hearer, touching his real life situation. But the Message (what we communicate to the unbeliever) remains unchanged.

Evangelism can harness the creativity of a great variety of methods drama, fun events, rallies, dance, and so on. But we must never lose sight of the all-important question: What Message are we putting out to the people through the Method we are using? If our Message is, "Hey, look! We Christians are just like you! If you join us, you won't need to give up anything after all!" then we have polluted the Message and emptied it of its power.

If, in our quest for cultural relevance, the Method (whether it be drama, concert, song or any other method) overshadows the Message, then the Message may be reduced to little more than: "Hey, it's cool to be a Christian!"

Is it cool to be a Christian? The answer is, paradoxically, yes and no. Yes, it is cool to be a Christian if being cool means that the Christian faith is relevant to modern youth culture. But no, being a Christian is most definitely extremely uncool if being “cool” means that Christian youth are expected to be exactly the same as non-Christian youth.

Is a walk of personal holiness cool? Is celebacy before marriage cool? Is being persecuted for your faith cool? If the answer to these questions
is “yes,” then yes, being a Christian is most definitely cool!

Paul expressed great concern that the purity of this Message not be diluted through recourse to human wisdom or sullied through the use of unscrupulous methods. The Gospel must never be diluted by conflicting or distracting messages.

This does not mean that we cannot use a great variety of different methods to communicate the Message What is important, however, is that the Message we bring is God's and not our own. It was for this
reason that God spoke very sternly to his prophet in Ezekiel 2:4,7:
"Say to them, "This is what the Sovereign Lord says, ...You must speak my words to them, whether they listen or fail to listen...'"

But the message of the Gospel has often been watered-down and sugar-coated in an effort to entice people to respond. Although we can express the Message creatively and in different ways, the essence of that Message must never change (Galatians 1:7-8).

rondoggy · Ferret Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 124

I am a former Jw of over 30 years. So I speak from experience. It is a Cult and does control your life.

Ron