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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:55 am Post subject: |
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The Beast out of the Earth (My interpretation)
This beast comes out of the earth, meaning to me that it represents a kingdom... a great nation. I believe that this beast having "two horns like a lamb..." is a representation of the way the great nation is projected to govern itself. A nation whose authority is set up by a representation of two leaders, not one. Therefore it is not a kingdom run by a king. Yet the authority is "spoken like a dragon"... projected as a sole king projects his authority.
This beast exercises all of the authority of the first beast... the authority being corruption itself... in full view of men... and made the earth and its inhabitants worship this particular corruption by way of miraculous force that could not be denied. This beast, in its corrupt way, gives breath to the image of the power of it's corruption... meaning it sets up a product of it's evil power. This beast... this great nation which worships the corruption of man, will give seat to the king of kings... the perfect image of the corruption of man... the third beast which is spoken of in Rev 17.
Where we differ mostly in opinion is that while you see the Beast from Rev 17 to be a governing source (the UN itself), I understand that the governing source that gives its power and authority to the third beast would be the ten horns whose one purpose is to do so, as scripture states. Possibly the UN... possibly not...
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The HeKkLeR |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your reply Hekkler
While your belief states that the beast is born from the heads... how can that be when they are the very heads of the beast itself? Does the head grow the body? Or the pot the potter?
Briefly, my belief is that the beast from the sea represents worldly kingdoms or goverments. The two horned wild beast( Anglo American world power) tells those on earth to make an image of the first beast.
This image of the beast has life breathed into it by the two horned beast.
It is later seen as a living breathing beast with power, the scarlet coloured beast. The united nations, an image or representative of the worlds goverments. this beast is also called an eighth king, it has acted on its own authority and will do even more so in the future.
| Quote: | The Beast out of the sea (my interpretation)
This beast is developed from the pride of the multitudes of men that have fallen away from granting glory to God, but set out for the pursuit of the worldly desires of men. |
So you don't think the beast can represent political powers?
Other beasts in the bible represent world powers why not this one?
In another vision, Daniel sees a two-horned ram that is struck down by a goat with a great horn. The angel Gabriel explains to him what it means: "The ram . . . stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece." Gabriel goes on to prophesy that the great horn of the he-goat would be broken and be succeeded by four horns. This actually happened more than 200 years later when Alexander the Great died and his kingdom was split into four kingdoms ruled over by four of his generals.-Daniel 8:3-8, 20-25.
| Quote: | | What is the throne of the beast? The highest glory alloted to man: the seat of the king of kings. |
Not sure what you mean here? what are you saying the beast's throne is?
| Quote: | | This beast has seven heads... that represent the seven kingdoms of corrupt man that will belong to the beast itself. |
Talking of the scarlet beast John says
"Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while." (Revelation 17:9,
The seven heads of that ferocious beast stand for seven "mountains," or seven "kings." Both terms are used Scripturally to refer to governmental powers. (Jeremiah 51:24, 25; Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45) In the Bible, six world powers are mentioned as having an impact on the affairs of God's people: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Of these, five had already come and gone by the time John received Revelation, whereas Rome was still very much a world power. This corresponds well with the words, "five have fallen, one is." But what of "the other" that was due to come?
3 The Roman Empire endured and even expanded for hundreds of years after John's day. In 330 C.E., Emperor Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Byzantium, which he renamed Constantinople. In 395 C.E., the Roman Empire was split into Eastern and Western parts. In 410 C.E., Rome itself fell to Alaric, king of the Visigoths (a Germanic tribe that had converted to the Arian brand of "Christianity"). Germanic tribes (also "Christian") conquered Spain and much of the territory of Rome in North Africa. There were centuries of upheaval, unrest, and readjustment in Europe. Notable emperors arose in the West, such as Charlemagne, who formed an alliance with Pope Leo III in the 9th century, and Frederick II, who reigned in the 13th century. But their domain, though named the Holy Roman Empire, was much smaller than that of the earlier Roman Empire at its zenith. It was more of a restoration or a continuation of this ancient power than a new empire.
4 Rome's Eastern Empire, centered at Constantinople, endured in a somewhat uneasy relationship with the Western Empire. In the sixth century, Eastern emperor Justinian I was able to reconquer much of North Africa, and he also intervened in Spain and Italy. In the seventh century, Justinian II recovered for the Empire areas of Macedonia that had been conquered by Slavic tribesmen. By the eighth century, however, much of the former territory of ancient Rome in North Africa, Spain, and Syria had come under the new empire of Islam and thus passed from the control of both Constantinople and Rome.
5 The city of Constantinople itself endured somewhat longer. It survived frequent attacks from Persians, Arabs, Bulgars, and Russians until in 1203 it finally fell-not to Muslims but to Crusaders from the West. In 1453, though, it came under the power of the Muslim Ottoman ruler Mehmed II and soon became capital of the Ottoman, or Turkish, Empire. Thus, although the city of Rome fell in 410 C.E., it took many more centuries for all traces of the political Roman Empire to pass from the world scene. And even then, its influence was still discernible in religious empires based on the papacy of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches.
6 By the 15th century, however, some countries were building brand-new empires. While some of these new imperial powers were found in the territory of former colonies of Rome, their empires were not mere continuations of the Roman Empire. Portugal, Spain, France, and Holland all became seats of far-flung domains. But the most successful was Britain, which came to preside over a huge empire on which 'the sun never set.' This empire spread at different times over much of North America, Africa, India, and Southeast Asia, as well as the expanse of the South Pacific.
7 By the 19th century, some of the colonies in North America had already broken away from Britain to form the independent United States of America. Politically, some conflict between the new nation and the former motherland continued. Nevertheless, the first world war forced both countries to recognize their common interests and cemented a special relationship between them. Thus, a kind of dual world power came to exist, made up of the United States of America, now the world's wealthiest nation, and Great Britain, seat of the world's largest empire. Here, then, is the seventh 'head,' or world power, that continues into the time of the end Compared with the long reign of the sixth head, the seventh remains only "a short while," until God's Kingdom destroys all national entities.
So what of the image of the beast brought into being by the two horned beast, the one that looks virtually the same as the beast from the sea and the scarlet beast? or was you comming to that?
| Quote: | | because that healing of the wound itself was astonishing, the whole world followed the beast and worshipped it. (Rev 13:3-4) What could this mean, you ask? Well my understanding is that with the first coming of the Christ, there would have been a mortal wound to the pride of man. Yet the pride of man overcame that wound, and drove on remarkably stronger... with a vengence. Therefore, who could make war against the corrupt pride of man? The corrupt will trample any and all that get in their path of boasting. |
I dont really understand how the comming of christ was a mortal wound to the pride of man?
My belief on the sword stroke
13 Early in the Lord's day, calamity strikes the wild beast. John reports: "And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration." (Revelation 13:3) This verse says that one head of the wild beast received a death stroke, but verse 12 speaks as though the entire beast suffered. Why is that? Well, the beast's heads are not all in the ascendancy together. Each in its turn has lorded it over mankind, particularly over God's people. (Revelation 17:10) Thus, as the Lord's day begins, there is only one head, the seventh, acting as the dominant world power. A death stroke on that head brings great distress to the entire wild beast.
What was the death stroke? Later, it is called a sword stroke, and a sword is a symbol of warfare. This sword stroke, administered early in the Lord's day, must relate to the first world war, which devastated and drained Satan's political wild beast. (Revelation 6:4, 8; 13:14) Author Maurice Genevoix, who was a military officer during that war, said of it: "Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914. First Europe and soon after almost all humanity found themselves plunged into a dreadful event. Conventions, agreements, moral laws, all the foundations shook; from one day to the next, everything was called into question. The event was to exceed both instinctive forebodings and reasonable anticipations. Enormous, chaotic, monstrous, it still drags us in its wake."-Maurice Genevoix, member of the Académie Française, quoted in the book Promise of Greatness (1968).
15 For the dominant seventh head of the wild beast, that war was a major disaster. Along with other European nations, Britain lost its young men in traumatic numbers. In one battle alone, the Battle of the River Somme in 1916, 420,000 British soldiers died, along with 200,000 French and 450,000 German-more than 1,000,000 fatalities! Economically, too, Britain-together with the rest of Europe-was shattered. The huge British Empire staggered under the blow and never fully recovered. Indeed, that war, with 28 leading nations participating, sent the entire world reeling as if by a deathblow. On August 4, 1979, just 65 years after the outbreak of World War I, The Economist, of London, England, commented: "In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since."
16 At the same time, the Great War, as it was then called, opened the way for the United States to emerge distinctly as part of the Anglo-American World Power. For the first years of the war, public opinion kept the United States out of the conflict. But as historian Esmé Wingfield-Stratford wrote, "it was all a question of whether, at this hour of supreme crisis, Britain and the United States would sink their differences in the realization of [their] overmastering unity and common trusteeship." As events turned out, they did. In 1917 the United States contributed her resources and manpower to bolster the war effort of the staggering Allies. Thus, the seventh head, combining Britain and the United States, came out on the winning side.
17 The world after the war was vastly different. Satan's earthly system, although devastated by the death stroke, revived and became more powerful than ever and so won the admiration of humans because of its recuperative power.
18 Historian Charles L. Mee, Jr., writes: "The collapse of the old order [caused by the first world war] was a necessary prelude to the spread of self-rule, the liberation of new nations and classes, the release of new freedom and independence." Leading in the development of this postwar era was the seventh head of the wild beast, now healed, and with the United States of America moving into the dominant role. The dual world power took the lead in advocating both the League of Nations and the United Nations. By the 1980's, U.S. political power had led the more privileged nations in creating a higher standard of living, in fighting disease, and in advancing technology. It had even placed 12 men on the moon. It is no wonder, therefore, that mankind in general has "followed the wild beast with admiration." |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mijt1 wrote: | don't think the beast can represent political powers?
Other beasts in the bible represent world powers why not this one? |
What I understand of the beasts of the bible is that they are living things, representing living, moving creatures... not establishments of men. A kingdom is not a just thing of manly governing powers, but a thing of living people with hearts that thrive on good and evil things.
Actually, the interpretation of man's governing powers of their Kingdoms comes with the interpretation of king Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue with the head of gold (Daniel 2:31-45). Note that the actual Kingdoms of men (governments) are displayed only as an idol... a thing that is only an image, but has no life in it... the best that man can do.
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The HeKkLeR |
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Javan
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Right you are, HeKkLeR,
The beasts (in Revelation) are not political at all - God is in charge of this world's political systems (Romans 13). The beasts exist - they are real.
The beasts have been given Satan's power and are using it day in and day out to deceive the inhabitants of the earth. These are the spirit(s) of antichrist.
One is ALL false religions (beast from the sea) and the other leads our churches away from following and believing scripture to following the beast from the sea (beast from the earth - looks like Jesus, talks like Satan - performs miracles wondrous signs). |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Hekkler wrote
| Quote: | | What I understand of the beasts of the bible is that they are living things, representing living, moving creatures... not establishments of men. A kingdom is not a just thing of manly governing powers, but a thing of living people with hearts that thrive on good and evil things. |
4 In another vision, Daniel sees a two-horned ram that is struck down by a goat with a great horn. The angel Gabriel explains to him what it means: "The ram . . . stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece." Gabriel goes on to prophesy that the great horn of the he-goat would be broken and be succeeded by four horns. This actually happened more than 200 years later when Alexander the Great died and his kingdom was split into four kingdoms ruled over by four of his generals.-Daniel 8:3-8, 20-25.
5 It is clear, therefore, that the Author of the inspired Bible regards the political powers of the earth as beasts
javan wrote
| Quote: | | The beasts (in Revelation) are not political at all - |
IN FURTHER describing the scarlet-colored wild beast of Revelation 17:3, the angel tells John: "Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while." (Revelation 17:9, 10)
"And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction." (Revelation 17:11)
"And he says to me: 'The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.'"-Revelation 17:15, 16.
Not political at all?
| Quote: | | God is in charge of this world's political systems |
3 The apostle Paul wrote to Christians living under the domination of the Roman Empire: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.” (Romans 13:1) What did Jesus mean when he stated that Pilate’s authority had been granted to him “from above”? And in what way did Paul consider that the political authorities of his day stood placed in their positions by God? Did they mean that Jehovah is personally responsible for the appointment of each individual political ruler of this world?
4 How could this be so, since Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world,” and the apostle Paul labeled him “the god of this system of things”? (John 12:31; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Furthermore, when tempting Jesus, Satan offered him “authority” over “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth,” claiming that this authority had been delivered to him. Jesus rejected his offer, but he did not deny that such authority was Satan’s to give.—Luke 4:5-8.
after the first human pair in Eden rejected theocracy, or God-rule, Jehovah allowed estranged humans to create authority structures that would permit them to live in an orderly society |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| mijt1 wrote: | | It is clear, therefore, that the Author of the inspired Bible regards the political powers of the earth as beasts |
These beasts spoken of are men... living, breathing creatures that possess political powers of mankind's society. They are mighty men. They live.
What life is found in a manmade political power?
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The HeKkLeR |
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Javan
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| mijt1 wrote: | | Not political at all? |
Political? No
Real? Yes
Representative of false churches and religions? Yes
Hmm...let's see, this church made itself the ruling authority, kept all other religion at bay, had the multitudes hating them because of their imposed laws, and rested on seven hills.
Why, Alec, the answer is - What is the Roman Catholic Church?
Correct! Pick again.
Am I being political here (just because the Catholic Church tries to be)? No, the church was never meant for politics and politics never meant for the church (Jesus did not come so He could build an earthly kingdom - John 18:36). The beast has left the harlot naked and in ruin and the harlot is still trying to regain what she once had. The beast is now free to roam the earth and create whatever religion it wants to. |
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