Interpret literally? I find it hard.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Moses carried a burden ... in the flesh that has no equal ... save Christ.

Imagine being called from a burning bush to lead three and a half million people out of bondage who were happier in Egypt than they were in the sinai desert.

That was Moses' job. Imagine the ridicule he endured. The opposition of men and women, even those of his own family. Poor Moses.

The only rest he got was when he stood in the presence of God until he shone with a brilliant countenance so bright that he had to wear a veil to keep from blinding the people when he finally came down off the mountain of God.

And the trips Moses took to that mountain. He would stay so long that the people had time to form a rebellion because they thought that he died up there. They even had enough time to seduce Moses' second in command to forge an idol of a calf, made from their own melted down gold ... only to have Moses show up and ruin their sinful party.

Why was Moses' law so strict and deadly? Did it come from the flesh of a man and the very Spirit of God? Yes ... of course it did.

That was the plan of God. The law of Moses was so strict ( by design ) that no one could live up to it ... not even Moses, Aaron, etc.

Each managed to fail the test of the forbidding law until finally, the law became fulfilled in Christ.

Later ... the same Moses ministered to Christ with Elijah by his side.

The last time we see Moses in the old testament, he is left to die on the top of a hill, sad because he didn't get to enter the promised land with the others then, the next time we see Moses, he is ministering to Christ.

His evident sadness did not last and it was not the end of him!

God found Moses worthy to minister to the Savior of the world and like he sometimes shone brightly, Christ became brilliant before the eyes of His disciples and they saw Him for who He is ... the one and only God.

After the revelation, when He had revealed His true identity, He told them," now don't tell any one." Yeah ... right ... we won't tell. Sure we won't.

From then on they knew that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. They saw Him for who He is ... and then they knew.

thunder

Ron · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject:

I am playing a bit of catch-up so I hope I am not being repetitious to another's post. With that said-

I think Eddy's questions are valuable for Biblical study. My latest memory verse ( and I will type it from memory!) is 1 Peter 3:15 " ... Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with genlteness and respect."

By searching and studying God's Word, we are better able to answer some of these tough questions for believers and perhaps even bring an unbeliever to Christ.

On the question of varying accounts by multiple witnesses. I guess the postion I take is this- does one witness account negate the other? Not from the conclusions of my studies.

On this from DBB:

Eddy Tiner · Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject:

Well put, Ron. 1 Peter 3:15 is one reason why some years ago I began studying the Bible with a different approach (different philosophy?) (different attitude?).

Previously, I had been very fundamentalist concerning scripture, also insisting that it was the direct and literal word of God, and free of all error. I think 1 Peter 3:15 is indeed telling us to seek the answer(s) to questions naturally raised by a number of problem passages. I am certainly not the expert on this (which is why I'm engaging you folks in discussion, here), but I think these problem passages generally fall into three categories: 1) two passages that contradict each other; 2) passages that seem incomplete; and 3) passages that strongly sound like the work of man, and not of God. Certainly, as Christians, if we cannot address concerns about passages such as these, we run the risk of failing to do what you mention -- that of our message not winning people to Christ, but of turning them away.

The reason I fear many are turned away is because by adopting a fundamentalist and literal view of scripture, we automatically create a situation where faith and reason collide. I fail to see why faith and reason can't coexist. To me, God seems to be the absolute model of reason and intellect. I am firmly convinced He both WANTS and EXPECTS us to analyze what men before us have written, in order to discover His truth and His message to us.

In my even mentioning category #1 above, I'm sure a number of people reading this bristle. I'd say get over it. Or at least direct your anger toward either the men who wrote the Bible, or those who selected which writings would go into it. One of the main reasons we as Christians aren't comfortable discussing this is because a VAST majority of our Christian training ignores these contradictions completely. "If we don't talk about it, then maybe it won't be a problem." Such thinking is incredibly short-sighted, dangerous, and disingenuous.

Ron · Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject:

One other thing I wanted to mention.

In my studies, I have learned that God's message to man is wrapped up in the messenger!

When we read "not by Word but by conduct" we should clearly understand what it is that brings people to Christ. It is our changed lives. It is not Scripture memorization or indepth study. It is when an unbeliever sees our life and says " they sure are different".

The three parts of the Gospel message are the messenger, the message and the method.

The method should never overshadow the message. What does this mean? It means that if we put on a Friday night Christian rock concert to draw in youth, they should not think the message of the Gospel of Christ is just that.

The message should be crystal clear in the messenger's life! We have the Lord's Word written in our hearts and on our mind. Our life should be the example of the message!

Bible study is important, don't get me wrong. But indepth study is the meat. New believers and unbelievers need milk.

I shall get off my soap box now. Wink

shepreach · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 488 Location: ga

ron wrote:

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

If following the word of God ... in a very real and literal sense does not change you, then you need to change what you believe.

The verbatem truth and faith in the verbatem truth will openly change you inside out.

The bible openly challenges gentiles to try other belief systems and when each fail and you are finally ready to try the truth in Christ, bring all of your faith to Him ... and watch God move heaven and earth to exemplify His infallible proofs.

If your religion does not change you, then you need to change your religion.

thunder

Eddy Tiner · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:10 am Post subject:

Eddy Tiner

MoJo · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:31 am Post subject:

It is obvious to me in reading these two accounts that they are different. There are also other places in scripture where the recording of the same events differ. However, we need to ask if the end result differs - if the message contradicts itself. In both accounts the field of blood is purchased with the blood money. This is the end result no matter how exactly it came about. The same with other discrepencies - is the end result the same?

These are minor points God has let stand for his own purposes. Yes, I am saying I believe there is a purpose to these discrepencies. There are people who make a hobby of rounding them up for the purposes of questioning our faith. The real question would be whether any of these seeming contradictions are serious enough to affect our faith and salvation? Do they mask the message? To those of little or no faith they are a stumbling block. Very Happy

Ron · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:07 am Post subject:

Eddy Tiner · Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:56 am Post subject:

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

There have always been questions on why the gospels don't completely agree with each other. Could be they were written by different people who saw things differently then the others. I for one am glad there are differences. I don't see things the same as a lot of other people and neither do you, so why do you question the different views of the gospel writers. It might be wiser to thank God for giving us the small amount of information the NT holds rather then always questioning the content. Where else would we be able to learn of Jesus and His teachings. I believe there were many, many other writings written by those who witnessed the life of Jesus, most of which were burned or destroyed and only the NT remains for us today. Be thankful for what we have.

Javan · Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:51 am Post subject:

The real issue comes down to whether we want to follow the "literal" letter or the "spiritual" letter that the Bible is.

If we follow the literal and we worry about which disciple wrote what, and how many, and who, what, where, when, why then we may as well start back in Exodus, put on our tassels, get circumcised (men only...sorry ladies you'll have no more social status Very Happy

), and strive to become Jews.

If we follow the spiritual and look with spiritual eyes and listen with spiritual ears then we will "see" and "hear" what the Holy Spirit has been saying from the moment the world was created, "I love you, will you love me?"

shepreach · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 488 Location: ga

eddie wrote: